putting ourselves online
of course all this came crashing down sometime in the last 6 or 8 years, when all of the sudden we were suddenly supposed to be putting ourselves online. the anarchy of identity had to be corralled somehow and exposed to the market. imagine, you go up to a stranger on the street and start to discuss the most personal parts of your sexuality and experiences with them... of course, this is quaint and a little perverted - yet totally acceptable! - within an anonymous framework, when we can never really be sure if the other is telling us the truth (and they always are in a way) and so we chalk it up to the strangeness of the medium. but is the medium changing us now?
when the internet first arrived it was hailed as a revolution by all sectors of progressive communities for becoming something you could lose yourself in. I myself posed as any number of things online before the age of 12, and given the average level of articulation in your average AOL user in 1996 people probably bought it. I was even impressed how I could escape the harsh dictates of reality, of my present situation, and project myself into any different number of worlds where my limitations would be lessened and I would have access to more than a teenage girl would otherwise.

before you could be some nameless experience, you could be whatever you wanted, and as a result no one took your identity too seriously. you could be whatever. a person presenting as male online could be female, a person presenting as straight online could be gay, so everyone kept an open mind. perhaps some started to experience a breakdown in these concepts generally, maybe even irl. after all, that desi clerk could actually be a beautiful blonde australian online, or whatever, so who cares? the avatar was something that gave you the chance to choose an apparition of yourself, and you could change it whenever...

of course all this came crashing down sometime in the last 6 or 8 years, when all of the sudden we were suddenly supposed to be putting ourselves online. the anarchy of identity had to be corralled somehow and exposed to the market. would you ever put a sign out your front door with an attractive headshot and listing your favorite games and music? let your friends come by and write things? let strangers look on your life and own a piece of it? imagine, you go up to a stranger on the street and start to discuss the most personal parts of your sexuality and experiences with them... of course, this is quaint and a little perverted - yet totally acceptable! - within an anonymous framework, when we can never really be sure if the other is telling us the truth (and they always are in a way) and so we chalk it up to the strangeness of the medium. but is the medium changing us now?

people criticized the "walled garden" of AOL, but what about now? hasn't the market created the same "walled garden" around hubs like facebook, gmail, etc? as for our identities, are they any less constructed - only now by others? the only issue with that is when the faces begin to meld with the names, when we begin to think that our identity is truly that which is subjected to the market. for a while we had "open source" identities and so everything was elevated to the realm of ideas. of course we had our own subjective experiences tied to real factors irl that influenced our thinking, but we were not going to be reduced to this online. nowadays, though, we are forced at gunpoint to produce those unchanging qualifiers - race, gender, age, sexual orientation, nationality - so that we may be easily and quickly streamlined into the marketplace of discourse. as we became more and more comfortable putting photos of ourselves out for public view against the advice of our mothers, we lost that freedom in the possibility to be anything... we turned the corner and found ourselves face-to-face with our own grinning headshot, personalities again reduced to a few blurbs and favorite quotes, our gender, age, race, and nationality.

a poster described me as having the possibility to be "anything" and I miss that.. I miss being able to be anything, not being dragged down by this sack of aging meat and bones... I try and aspire to have that fluidity and adaptability. as my worlds collide and become smaller and smaller, as I marry online identities to my irl one, I become more and more terrified of the world closing in on me. the fragile freedom of a childhood spent flirting in AOL chat rooms far from the eyes of white cissexual male patriarchy is being torn from my children and grandchildren's futures... what is to be done?
Discussion of putting ourselves online on tHE r H i z z o n E:
#1
moot (of 4chan) has been pretty outspoken in defense of the anonymous Internet and criticizing the notion that everything should be done under our real identity.

A very recent example: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/4chans_chris_poole_facebook_google_are_doing_it_wr.php
#2

[account deactivated]

#3

[account deactivated]

#4
i always believe everything i hear on the internet, as well as everything that i say.
#5
what do you think of things like Open ID and Gravatar? both of these came pre-packaged with the base forum software that I hacked on (djangoBB), and so as a result they're here in our forum too. Gravatar I don't mind as much, and I actually really like that people who haven't uploaded an avatar still have some kind of semi-unique image to help other people differentiate who they are in a large thread. (a feature that can still be turned off if no avatar is really what a person prefers, but its a nice default)

Open ID on the other hand makes me wary... on one hand, I think its OK as an alternative form of login, like how its set up here, but on the other, and especially combined *with* gravatar, you end up seeing ten million avatars that look like this all over the web - every blog, news site, tech forum, etc:





just UGH. i get the impression that its a way introduce social conformity on the web. to make the place feel like a japanese subway car or something. i mean, sure, no one is *stopping* you from talking loudly and saying all kinds of crazy shit, but you wouldn't really do such a thing while everybody's staring at your shining face, would you?
#6

lungfish posted:
moot (of 4chan) has been pretty outspoken in defense of the anonymous Internet and criticizing the notion that everything should be done under our real identity.

A very recent example: http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/4chans_chris_poole_facebook_google_are_doing_it_wr.php



GONNA +1 THIS ARTICLE RIGHT HERE

#7
theres nothing to talk about wrt internet anonymity. internet regulates itself well enough. morons go on facebook, cool handsome geniouses like me go on anonymous internet forums to post alongside depressed virgins, ironic hentai lovers and troons.

the worst thing that can happen is every mainstream website does the spotify thing and start requiring everybody to login with their facebook accounts. but even that's kindof a moot point since fringe sites arent gonna get on that bandwagon for obvious reasons. aint no yaoi fan forums gonna integrate to facebook anytime soon so im not too worried.
#8

[account deactivated]

#9
this forum feels like more of a chat between friends. which certainly isnt a bad thing but it'd be cool if we could have our main identity and then a bunch of splinters to troll with
#10
if your fb freinds with ppl from sa offsites, its about time to kill yourself
#11

Fucker posted:
if your fb freinds with ppl from sa offsites, its about time to kill yourself




They're already dead bro

-posted from my iPhone 7

#12
one time i heard a dude call out 'ken' and i turned around. my irl name is not ken. what is a man? a miserable little conglomeration of contradictory identities
#13

[account deactivated]

#14

animedad posted:
this forum feels like more of a chat between friends. which certainly isnt a bad thing but it'd be cool if we could have our main identity and then a bunch of splinters to troll with



ya 4realz. lets take this shit 2 da next level! smash the false unity of the self!

#15
parties are haraam
#16

[account deactivated]

#17
It is definitely accelerating (heh) conformity especially in the interaction with the workplace. On accounts that are tied with my actual irl identity I worry often about posting my thoughts and ideas - even to close friends.

In the private sector of a right-to-work state your health, shelter, and nutrition are threatened directly if your online identity is recorded as saying something that might reflect badly on your company's philosophy (heh).

In the public sector you are in just as much shit, because instead of being bound to a private philosophy you are bound to the state's "fascist neutrality." If any action or speech you take is documented and reflects badly on the philosophy of whatever institution you work with, again your family's well-being is in direct jeopardy. This is especially scary in lower education where I work. I fear for my prospects of work and prosperity every day because of my academic background and private political stances - regardless of the fact that I have the best credentials of anyone my age.

Oh so I see here that you posted a picture of a cop bloodying an elderly protester on your Facebook page - guess you can't work for the school because then we wouldn't be politically neutral and your radical ways would jeopardize our system's mission of a fair education for all students.
#18
i like 4chanman's point that "we present ourselves differently in different contexts, and that's key to our creativity and self-expression", and i think google plus is trying to address that with their circles thing

but what scares me is that facebook (and i guess now google plus), in order to not disappear like myspace when a newer thing pops up, try to establish illusions of being permanent and important in people's online and offline lives. it seems like most people i know have bought into this with facebook

i deleted my facebook a few months ago when i was getting anonymous messages on tumblr that were pictures of me from my facebook photoshopped onto different stuff. it obviously makes sense as a business model to establish your website as the "center" of the internet in your customer's heads but it has such creepy and unnatural consequences

that said, i may have to make a fake facebook soon with some made up name because now an increasing number of websites and even real-life events require you to click stuff on facebook to be a part of them at all
#19

Skylark posted:
i like 4chanman's point that "we present ourselves differently in different contexts, and that's key to our creativity and self-expression", and i think google plus is trying to address that with their circles thing

but what scares me is that facebook (and i guess now google plus), in order to not disappear like myspace when a newer thing pops up, try to establish illusions of being permanent and important in people's online and offline lives. it seems like most people i know have bought into this with facebook



you know, this is really insightful. this has gotta be the real reason why they're pushin for this sort of thing.

#20

[account deactivated]

#21
I have actually tried to coalesce my identities. I think this is somewhat natural as we get older. When we're young, we want to experiment with the various paths our lives could take. There is a big open sea of opportunities and potential selves.

But eventually we realize that we have become who we are, to an extent. That opportunity and options are a thing of the past, a youthful privilege. And at this point, the best thing you can do is find peace with who you are, and attempt to obtain some integrity in your single identity, your real and only identity.

Hiding certain things in other identities becomes a form of cowardice, an unwillingness to address that either a) you need to "come out" as that person under your real identity or b) you need to leave that identity by the wayside as a failed experiment. And while perhaps justifiable under some sort of brutal authoritarian regime that would murder you if they knew the truth, not wanting to offend your parents or friends with your actual self is probably not good enough justification for permanent secrecy.

But like I said, it is not something you really have to worry about until you're 30 or so.
#22

discipline posted:
they've turned the internet not into a marketplace of ideas, but a marketplace of identity, meaning... you are now a commodity online

like for instance: I don't know you lungfish. you are a real person and you are just putting a piece of yourself on public display. just because you say something weird here I'm not going to think you are an "awful person irl". people have been using anonymous methods of communication to be as scatological and pornographic for like a thousand years or more... the problem is when you start to conflate that medium with your own identity or view "others" as real people. perhaps this is why "trolling" is invaluable to a healthy (whatever that means) online community... it reminds us we are not who we or others think we are and that some are still giving us the benefit of anonymity, clearly not seeing us as human.

I had this person I'd barely talked to online tell me they considered me a "friend" and I thought how depressing and offensive. depressing in that they latch onto people so quickly with nearly no effort and find it sufficient for companionship or at least an institution they could conflate with "irl friends" and offensive that they could somehow think they could wrap their head around me enough through such limited means ... I am not reducible to an aim window!!

anyway I respect the "institution" or "construct" of lungfish. I've known lungfish for years, longer than many of my irl friends. of course lungfish has never cried on my shoulder or shared a meal with me, but that construct is still an irreplaceable part of my online landscape and I respect it/him for existing and expressing it/himself. I respect your autonomy as a semianonymous troll lungfish! I'm glad you are still around + posting and not swallowed up into the shallow world of the facebook identity ball-and-chain...



real fucking talk

#23

discipline posted:
babyfinland was at a party once and some drunk guy heard he was there and got all upset and like "wherezat guy I'm gunna kick his punk ass!!!!"



"THAT HARDLINE MAOIST ASSHOLE!!!"

#24

discipline posted:
we all have a bit of babyfinland in us I suppose



like genghis khan

#25

deadken posted:
parties are haraam

#26
Consider The Matrix.
#27

lungfish posted:
I have actually tried to coalesce my identities. I think this is somewhat natural as we get older. When we're young, we want to experiment with the various paths our lives could take. There is a big open sea of opportunities and potential selves.

But eventually we realize that we have become who we are, to an extent. That opportunity and options are a thing of the past, a youthful privilege. And at this point, the best thing you can do is find peace with who you are, and attempt to obtain some integrity in your single identity, your real and only identity.

Hiding certain things in other identities becomes a form of cowardice, an unwillingness to address that either a) you need to "come out" as that person under your real identity or b) you need to leave that identity by the wayside as a failed experiment. And while perhaps justifiable under some sort of brutal authoritarian regime that would murder you if they knew the truth, not wanting to offend your parents or friends with your actual self is probably not good enough justification for permanent secrecy.

But like I said, it is not something you really have to worry about until you're 30 or so.


the unbearable gravity of lungfish ahehaheah

#28
my job does a lot of weird little online things where people can hang out and chat, and for more than a year now i've been using different facebook accounts (they require you to facebook account usually) to get in and start trolling/yelling at people. every time it happens it causes a very major ruckus as people literally run around the office trying to find out who's trolling people, because i guess the communications would take on a vastly different meaning depending on who's saying them
#29

lungfish posted:
I have actually tried to coalesce my identities. I think this is somewhat natural as we get older. When we're young, we want to experiment with the various paths our lives could take. There is a big open sea of opportunities and potential selves.

But eventually we realize that we have become who we are, to an extent. That opportunity and options are a thing of the past, a youthful privilege. And at this point, the best thing you can do is find peace with who you are, and attempt to obtain some integrity in your single identity, your real and only identity.

Hiding certain things in other identities becomes a form of cowardice, an unwillingness to address that either a) you need to "come out" as that person under your real identity or b) you need to leave that identity by the wayside as a failed experiment. And while perhaps justifiable under some sort of brutal authoritarian regime that would murder you if they knew the truth, not wanting to offend your parents or friends with your actual self is probably not good enough justification for permanent secrecy.

But like I said, it is not something you really have to worry about until you're 30 or so.


i disagree

#30

gyrofry posted:

lungfish posted:
I have actually tried to coalesce my identities. I think this is somewhat natural as we get older. When we're young, we want to experiment with the various paths our lives could take. There is a big open sea of opportunities and potential selves.

But eventually we realize that we have become who we are, to an extent. That opportunity and options are a thing of the past, a youthful privilege. And at this point, the best thing you can do is find peace with who you are, and attempt to obtain some integrity in your single identity, your real and only identity.

Hiding certain things in other identities becomes a form of cowardice, an unwillingness to address that either a) you need to "come out" as that person under your real identity or b) you need to leave that identity by the wayside as a failed experiment. And while perhaps justifiable under some sort of brutal authoritarian regime that would murder you if they knew the truth, not wanting to offend your parents or friends with your actual self is probably not good enough justification for permanent secrecy.

But like I said, it is not something you really have to worry about until you're 30 or so.

i disagree

#31
#32
Internet social networking just seems like the natural extension of panoptic control. Mark Zuckerberg doesn't watch us from his castle, we all watch each other and ensure that social norms are followed and radicalism is stamped out. In fact, we watch Mark Zuckerberg, any change to facebook provokes an outcry because it might not allow us to regulate each other as efficiently, for example when they changed chat so it was more annoying to know constantly who is on, who to avoid, and who deserves to be chatted with vs. ignored as a "fb friend from that party one time I barely know".

It's also completely rational, gmail, facebook, and the commodification of our personal lives allows more efficient production, we create our own advertising and ensure that use values are produced instantaneously. Obviously, this still belongs to the immaterial economy, which while interesting does not and cannot replace the real economy of extraction of surplus value from labor.

I'm not exactly sure what's so unique about the internet though, identities, personal space, and human relations have always been moving toward commodification and panoptic self-regulation. The internet is just another technology which increases this trend.
#33
A world in which radicalism is stamped out due to social regulation... what a nightmare...
#34

animedad posted:


god your friends must be awful

#35
you still have friends IRL? get with the times man
#36
i welcome the possibility of an island...
#37
there's a website called KLOUT that gathers information from your profiles on various social networks and spits out an arbitrary and useless "score" of how influential you are

i was curious and clicked a few times and got my results


klout says "You are engaged by influencers ", which i guess is good to know about myself

it asks for your real name (it would presumably pull this from facebook if i had a facebook) and then creates this page with links to all these different parts of your web presence. you add profiles in two clicks each, and it authorizes klout through the api. i think a lot of people like me will be curious and spend a few seconds putting stuff in to see this bullshit score, and now there's a website with their real name and links to all the things they're doing online

the main reason i bring it up though is that klout is a good example of the dangers of this competition between these social media startups. obviously there's a ton of money to be made in being the "center" of the internet, but what's lost is the freedom of anonymity/acting differently around different social groups that is important to me and my brother in anime, chris "moot" 4poole.
#38
I want to have a good Facebook profile which has pictures of me doing things outside and maybe having fun with friends, smiling in all the photos
#39

lungfish posted:
I want to have a good Facebook profile which has pictures of me doing things outside and maybe having fun with friends, smiling in all the photos


ptryrnd i posted those famous early 20th century lynching pictures. the oens with the smiling shite people and dead black person corpses in the backgroaund

#40
:)
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