#121
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babyhueypnewton posted:

RedMaistre posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

All those quotes could be from LLCO or ye olde LF since Nietzsche is talking about British and German liberals being culled. Not that Nietzsche is communist but he is the greatest critic of liberalism which has always been the backbone of engenics.

That's would be a rather way narrow way to construe references to the "masses" or the "common man:" to say the least.

I would argue rather that he distilled the uglier elements of liberalism and bought them to the foreground in a form that serves bourgeois democracy both as a perfect scapegoat and as a source of quasi-covert perverse fascination.

Well the most useful parts of Nietzsche have already been recovered by Foucault and Deleuze and it's a great victory that he's been abandoned by the right. I don't think it's useful to find quotes since his definitions are different than ours. He has his own definitions of 'masses', 'race', 'democracy', etc. Saying that these can be read to support fascism is obviously true since that already happened, however that he can be recovered by both structuralist and post-structuralist Marxism, which were great progressive steps in reclaiming communist theory from Eurocommunism and vulgar economism is also obviously true since it too happened. Why attack Nietzsche when he's an ally of the left at the current historical juncture?



Well Foucault and Deleuze are a whole argument just by themselves...

But I would be curious why you think he has been abandoned by the right.

#122
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Those people are a bad joke though. Actually existing fascism has embraced human rights, liberalism, anti-racism, and LGBT rights (though unevenly). This doesn't mean we should be pro-homophobia and pro-racism but it does mean attacking Ukraine, Colombia, India and other neo-fascist states by the standards of liberalism is already using fascist language, especially when Ukraine v. Russia, India v. Nepal, Colombia v. Venezuela is put in terms of rights instead of imperialism. I would be Bordigist here are say communists need their own definitions for everything rather than hitching onto the identity politics of liberalism and Nietzsche's attacks on liberalism as a value system alone are essential for that.
#123
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babyhueypnewton posted:

Actually existing fascism



catchphrase

#124
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babyhueypnewton posted:

I would be Bordigist here are say



catchphrase

#125
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we need to be bordigist more often
#126
Poronto
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im boredigist
#127
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RedMaistre posted:

Hence his crude son-of-a-Lutheran-minister rage against Wagner



Oh man, fuck those crude non-humble, plebeian Protestants.Impetrare done . . .

#128
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walkinginonit posted:

RedMaistre posted:

Hence his crude son-of-a-Lutheran-minister rage against Wagner

Oh man, fuck those crude non-humble, plebeian Protestants.Impetrare done . . .



At first...

But then....

#129
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But really, I associate Martin Luther more with bending the knee to minor German princelings than with respectable adjectives like 'plebeian.'
#130
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I was just messing with you, man *awkwardly gives cars a hug*
#131
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babyhueypnewton posted:

All those quotes could be from LLCO or ye olde LF since Nietzsche is talking about British and German liberals being culled. Not that Nietzsche is communist but he is the greatest critic of liberalism which has always been the backbone of engenics.



yea LLCO and ye olde LF is definitely not liberal, and certainly the greatest critic of liberalism is a bourgeois reactionary fancying himself a bourgeois aristocrat. Certainly not any actual Marxists. Hes kinda like Carl Schmitt that way, a great critic of liberalism,

babyhueypnewton posted:

Actually existing fascism has embraced human rights, liberalism, anti-racism, and LGBT rights (though unevenly).



they embraced anti-racism and LGBT rights like zionists embraced anti-antisemitism

this is some serious zizek-grade shit

#132
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tfw when your crush unevenly embraces u
#133
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We have embraced LGBT rights (unevenly), this is why LGBT are still disproportionately homeless, lacking medical care, overwhelmingly unemployed and facing job discrimination, and face a violent state which beats them and kills them at home, and murders them in great numbers abroad. Very similar as one would say to the anti-racist struggle of hte imperial bourgeoisie, who make sure to circulate racist war propaganda and falsification of history on a world scale, manages to genocide many nations simultaneously, and we'll just ignore the problem of underdevelopment, medical discrimination, housing crisis, and you name it.

The imperial bourgeoisie is right, they are the democratic force, zizek is right, what the imperial bourgeoisie says is actually true, and the dictatorship of the proletariat is not a million times more democratic than any bourgeois nation. Thish i claim.
#134
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Whether fascist states are in fact homophobic and racist is a separate issue, that they embrace the language of human rights and liberalism is worth investigation. Like I said there's a lesson from Bordiga here, socialists can claim to be more democratic or more friendly to anti-racism/anti-sexism/anti-homophobia, but we've already adapted our language to liberalism and therefore are forced to compete on its ideological plane. For example, claiming that socialist states are more democratic disguises the fact that communism is "a hammer which we use to crush the enemy" and that democracy is impossible in a class society. Or claiming that socialist states are more friendly to various identity politics hides the fact that communism is the abolishment of gender, sexuality, race, and ultimately "identity".
#135
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walkinginonit posted:

I was just messing with you, man *awkwardly gives cars a hug*



Not sure whether to read this as implying I'm a sock puppet of cars or....

#136
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babyhueypnewton posted:

Or claiming that socialist states are more friendly to various identity politics hides the fact that communism is the abolishment of gender, sexuality, race, and ultimately "identity".



How would communism abolish "identity"?

#137
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*feedback sound as i crank the megaphone* very carefully lol.
#138
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babyhueypnewton posted:

claiming that socialist states are more democratic disguises the fact that (...) that democracy is impossible in a class society


uh huh

Edited by c_man ()

#139
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TheIneff posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Or claiming that socialist states are more friendly to various identity politics hides the fact that communism is the abolishment of gender, sexuality, race, and ultimately "identity".

How would communism abolish "identity"?



“Who needs a “1”?

The voice of a “1”

is thinner than a squeak.

Who will hear it?

Only the wife…

A “1” is nonsense.

A “1” is zero.”

-Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, Vladimir Mayakovsky



I just mean that the new communist man, who is truly a social being, can no longer conceive of 'identity' any more than modern man can conceive of the world on terms of feudal mysticism.

#140
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babyhueypnewton posted:

Whether fascist states are in fact homophobic and racist is a separate issue, that they embrace the language of human rights and liberalism is worth investigation. Like I said there's a lesson from Bordiga here, socialists can claim to be more democratic or more friendly to anti-racism/anti-sexism/anti-homophobia, but we've already adapted our language to liberalism and therefore are forced to compete on its ideological plane. For example, claiming that socialist states are more democratic disguises the fact that communism is "a hammer which we use to crush the enemy" and that democracy is impossible in a class society. Or claiming that socialist states are more friendly to various identity politics hides the fact that communism is the abolishment of gender, sexuality, race, and ultimately "identity".



Bordiga is wrong. Lenin and the Marxist-Leninists in actual socialist states are correct. Socialism is democratic. By most common measures. By its very nature, a dictatorship of the proletariat is democratic, it is absolutely necessary for the masses to be actively involved in the proletarian state. By its very nature, socialism is friendly to anti-racism/anti-sexism/anti-homophobia. This has even been the case with the USSR, for example, where sodomy laws weren't prosecuted anywhere near as much as in the advanced capitalist nations, and mostly were prosecuted in the case of rape (statutory and violent). Mostly it was seen through the prism of medicalization, before scientific studies had been carried out on human sexuality in the 50s-70s.

By its very nature, imperialism is concretely an enemy to anti-racism/anti-sexism/anti-homophobia. By rejecting these basic facts, you're 1) actually adapting your language to the plane of liberalism and its anticommunist propaganda and 2) rejecting actual Marxist-Leninist theory from socialist nations in favor of eclecticists like Bordiga (and Zizek). There is no reason to cede the ground to bourgeois rights and their imperial articulation.

#141
UNUSUALY COOL
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pretty obvious that redmaistre knows too much about thing to be me
#142
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haha god Bordiga sucks https://books.google.com/books?id=kArWAqMNjmQC&pg=PA147&dq=bordiga+mussolini&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIqOTSu96DxwIVAnI-Ch1o7Q-N#v=onepage&q=bordiga%20mussolini&f=false
#143
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Crow posted:

haha god Bordiga sucks https://books.google.com/books?id=kArWAqMNjmQC&pg=PA147&dq=bordiga+mussolini&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMIqOTSu96DxwIVAnI-Ch1o7Q-N#v=onepage&q=bordiga%20mussolini&f=false



this is really interesting. i guess i dont really disagree with anything you said, im just not sure it translates into concrete anti-imperialism in the age of identity politics. if homophobia is immediate cause for social exclusion and censorship in the left, while apologia for imperialism is accepted as 'left unity' (showing the strength of identity politics in the left), emphasizing words like democracy, human rights, and inequality instead of imperialism, exploitation, and proletarian dictatorship, even if they in reality belong to socialism, may be capitulation to liberalism. I see this most concretely with regards to Russia, where the debate over identity and the hypocrisy of liberalism leads to third campism, pessimism, and de facto support for fascism instead of clear anti-imperialism. but that's probably just first worldism manifesting itself as more abstract ideology.

#144
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Crow posted:

Socialism is democratic. By most common measures.



lol

#145
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Crow posted:

We have embraced LGBT rights (unevenly), this is why LGBT are still disproportionately homeless, lacking medical care, overwhelmingly unemployed and facing job discrimination, and face a violent state which beats them and kills them at home, and murders them in great numbers abroad. Very similar as one would say to the anti-racist struggle of hte imperial bourgeoisie, who make sure to circulate racist war propaganda and falsification of history on a world scale, manages to genocide many nations simultaneously, and we'll just ignore the problem of underdevelopment, medical discrimination, housing crisis, and you name it.

The imperial bourgeoisie is right, they are the democratic force, zizek is right, what the imperial bourgeoisie says is actually true, and the dictatorship of the proletariat is not a million times more democratic than any bourgeois nation. Thish i claim.


but they can get married now...

#146
Post rating: +

NoFreeWill posted:

Crow posted:

Socialism is democratic. By most common measures.

lol



i know no one cares about your stupid petite bourgeois anticommunist nonsense but here's a cool poll for yall i saw the other day



#147
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so they managed to fuck up so badly half the population were revisionists. goddamnit dubcek

#148
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"revisionism"
#149
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Hell, half of MY fictional country would be advanced marxist-leninists, and not just regular people who support communism and the communist party and want market socialism in order to raise the productive forces. Then we can have 100% membership in the central committee and everyone can take turns making speeches about how Hitler was good and the posts here are really, really, really good. Really very good. Mmm they're good.
#150
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yeah it's really great here. this forum is so popular and filled with productive exchange of ideas. the world just doesn't understand.
#151
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Crow posted:

Hell, half of MY fictional country would be advanced marxist-leninists, and not just regular people who support communism and the communist party and want market socialism in order to raise the productive forces. Then we can have 100% membership in the central committee and everyone can take turns making speeches about how Hitler was good and the posts here are really, really, really good. Really very good. Mmm they're good.



after 50 years in power one would hope so

#152
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Better Revisionism than Fabianism.
#153
UNUSUALY COOL
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NoFreeWill posted:

yeah it's really great here. this forum is so popular and filled with productive exchange of ideas. the world just doesn't understand.



maybe you should stop posting

#154
"Jpg." - Hank Hill
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when the challenger exploded there were some at NASA who wanted to think about what the problem was and change some things to avoid it happening again. but that was revisionism and pretty fucked up
#155
chickeon
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babyhueypnewton posted:

he is the greatest critic of liberalism

I'm partial to marx, lenin and mao myself

#156
Poronto
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wait whats are position on market socialism
#157
Poronto
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i had a thunk about the planned-ness of the economy being chiefly manifested as the state being buyer-of-first-resort for most commodities while industries are largely under private management and compete with each other, did this happen in the eastern bloc or anywhere else donald or something who knows and was it good
#158
chickeon
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crow recently made a bunch extremely fuckin good posts about the planned econopmy in tyhe USSR, did you miss those or something
#159
Poronto
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i dont actually read anything man
#160
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i thought market socialism was what yugo branded itself as