MarianneSadd posted:I'm asking in good faith
i dont think unsubtly asserting that the PSL is aping the DSA is "good faith"
e: i dont follow PSL news and havent read the article, fwiw the BAR take seems to be the most coherent that ive seen tho
MarianneSadd posted:I'm asking in good faith for you to please explain the reasoning behind the PSL's GOTV efforts for Bernie Sanders and its disciplining member outreach. Please don't throw up your hands and walk away. I am seriously considering joining the PSL and want to know why this rather shocking position has been taken by the party.
I don't see why it's shocking that PSL would be courting a large body of uncoordinated but interested people, and doing so is not entryism as you later claim. Is it entryism to be in unions? Other mass movements or organizations? Occupy? We are not joining the democratic party, nor are we even committing the lesser-order sin of pulling a cpusa and endorsing presidencies. We are engaging with advanced and intermediate (to use lenins terms) people who support sanders at this time, getting them in the door and furthering their education once they are in the room. We aren't seeking to recruit most of them at this point, just bring them into our periphery. Eventually, to use union recruiting terms, you may reach the point where you can take people from a 2 to a 3, but that's not always desirable. Increase their personal engagement with building socialism and their political education and you create buyin. We do weekly sock distributions to the homeless alongside Food not Bombs - works well for this purpose.
Edited by Urbandale ()
Urbandale posted:MarianneSadd posted:I'm asking in good faith for you to please explain the reasoning behind the PSL's GOTV efforts for Bernie Sanders and its disciplining member outreach. Please don't throw up your hands and walk away. I am seriously considering joining the PSL and want to know why this rather shocking position has been taken by the party.
I don't see why it's shocking that PSL would be courting a large body of uncoordinated but interested people, and doing so is not entryism as you later claim. Is it entryism to be in unions? Other mass movements or organizations? Occupy? We are not joining the democratic party, nor are we even committing the lesser-order sin of pulling a cpusa and endorsing presidencies. We are engaging with advanced and intermediate (to use lenins terms) people who support sanders at this time, getting them in the door and furthering their education once they are in the room. We aren't seeking to recruit most of them at this point, just bring them into our periphery. Eventually, to use union recruiting terms, you may reach the point where you can take people from a 2 to a 3, but that's not always desirable. Increase their personal engagement with building socialism and their political education and you create buyin. We do weekly sock distributions to the homeless alongside Food not Bombs - works well for this purpose.
First of all, I'd like to know what you mean (or what Lenin means) by "advanced and intermediate" people, from what class you are drawing these numbers, what socio-economic background, and how are you engaging with them when you encourage them to vote Sanders? And to what end? And where are Becker's extortions to go contribute to one's local FNB (as a veteran of this, I commend your group for participating!) ?
You describe these "advanced and intermediate" people as "uncoordinated but interested"... but they are coordinated... by the Democratic Party, or by other hanger-ons. As for what they may or may not be interested in, by my guess (given how they ended up on your website in the first place) they are more likely interested in Socialism and Liberation, not so much in guidance on who to vote for as registered Democrats in the state of New York.
I don't have an issue with speaking to Sanders fans as fellow concerned members of society. I don't think anyone does. But I do take issue with being curious about PSL's stances on Socialism and Liberation, specifically their tactical vision for achieving this in the US, and then being confronted with a line I see as hardly being different from Jacobin magazine. Critical support, isn't that what they call it? But I see here with Becker, I shouldn't even be so critical. Rather, I should be dishonest and say I hope that Sanders runs for a third party candidacy, because the system still affords chances for reasonable reform. Once he gets smashed up for doing that, I'm sure they'll really listen to what I have to say about Socialism and Liberation.
This sort of ties into the thread about Blood Lies, and the thread about propaganda and narrative. Why do I need to bother pandering to this spectacle, giving it any of my effort past loudly proclaiming its illegitimacy? When the writing is on the wall, when voter fraud is pretty much a given, when the system is set up to be as undemocratic as possible, why do I need to pretend I see the system as anything but irrevocably against Socialism and Liberation?
And also, out of curiosity, if he does run as third party, will PSL members and supporters be knocking on doors for Bernie Sanders come November? I should reiterate here I would be happy to throw myself wholeheartedly at this if I can wrap my head around why these advanced and intermediate types, ready to go canvas door to door, are better off doing this and not something else? I mean, all this has happened before in the United States, and failed. What about this time makes it so exceptional that I've failed to see thus far?
roseweird posted:this anecdote mostly seems to come up in anticommunist publications to try to show that mao was shallow and narcissistic enough to believe that, despite his limited personal ability to transform the situation of agricultural regions, his personal dietary choices carried moral weight
that's a fun example of liberalism in thought, "oh my choice not to eat meat affects dick all since one person is a small number of people, so since mao was also a nobody member of a 21st century polity whose example inspired no one,"
MarianneSadd posted:You describe these "advanced and intermediate" people as "uncoordinated but interested"... but they are coordinated... by the Democratic Party, or by other hanger-ons.
urbandale pretty clearly spoke of relatively spontaneous community events in support of sanders, even with some level of party involvement i can see how these events could be fertile ground for recruiting/radicalising.
and although i question the potential effectiveness of joining a strategic call for registered dems to vote for sanders in that specific primary, it was clearly just that. the risk that many would be left with the impression that PSL straight up endorsed sanders for president was obviously a calculated one. worth it? i dont know because as i say, i question the potential effectiveness (actual effectiveness turned out to be nil since clinton won the primary) and it clearly has caused some to question their judgment. but lets say sanders won, if so it's reasonable to suggest there would be more extensive ruptures in the dem party and therefore more potential for recruiting/radicalising, if that's indeed been working so far. so it doesnt seem crazy to me, wishful thinking maybe, but not crazy, and not the same as entryism.
MarianneSadd posted:And also, out of curiosity, if he does run as third party, will PSL members and supporters be knocking on doors for Bernie Sanders come November?
they were pretty clear about this, the answer is no because they dont actually endorse sanders for president, and anyway PSL have their own candidate
oh god i think im beginning to care too much about this. Death to america
MarianneSadd posted:all this has happened before in the United States, and failed.
idk i shit talk Bornie all the time, but the one thing i do admit is that i don't know if there has been another time when a self described socialist has been the most liked/admired presidential candidate in that country even if 1) that has almost nothing to do with him 2) it may not matter what people think in the U.S. and 3) it also reflects the dismal conditions of establishment liberals seeking buy-in during a time when cheap eastern labor has cause everyone from left-liberals to the far right to endorse the destruction of Western culture so that every whitey can Do Computers. like fuck bernie sanders but also feel good about what he's hijacking, thats my approach.
swampman posted:Why would Sanders' nomination cause ruptures in the Democrat party any more than Barack Obama beating Hillary Clinton caused ruptures in the Democrat party
because sanders claims a socialist platform even if in name only whereas obama only ever talked about Hope and Change and equally vague nouns? so in forcing the party to confront an internal challenge that at least calls itself socialist, a space is potentially opened in the ensuing fracas for actual socialists to recruit. once again i am skeptical of the real potential here but i can at least see the logic
le_nelson_mandela_face posted:dont say democrat party you sound like a college republican trying to be clever
Oh that was honestly unintentional
Petrol posted:because sanders claims a socialist platform even if in name only whereas obama only ever talked about Hope and Change and equally vague nouns?
Well, you rmember Obama made Joe Plumber famous by mentioning the plan to "spread the wealth". This article cites a Rasmussen poll that suggests that socialism wasn't a dangerous political topic in America in 2009. Obama was known for their "radical" past being on speaking terms with dangerous elements from the fwiggin DSA; no Democrats cared at primary time. But more specifically to the logic I don't see why "forcing the party to confront an internal challenge" like this won't just cause the Democratic party to embrace the word "socialism" cleaned of all communist connotations. Sorry but the code word to activate my Actual Politics Helping functions is "Imperialism" so wake me when a candidate says that word Imperialism, slow turn to spit chaw on the floor, disgusted grunt, before continuing, "need to fuckin die today"
If Sanders does take a step that is truly fractious to the Democratic party I'll be a lot more open to the logic as well. The ideal of course would be for them to get the nomination and then repudiate the party... the ideal would be they were anti-imperialist sigh
Edited by swampman ()
lmao.
Edited by Urbandale ()
tsinava posted:donald trump is gonna be the president of the united states.
lmao.
swampman posted:Sorry but the code word to activate my Actual Politics Helping functions is "Imperialism"
me too but its a good jumping off point to me, because people who havent talked to me in a while and have kind of lefty politics are like i bet youre on bernie sanders campaign huh. and i say no he says hes a socialist but let me tell you about imperialism. im a lot of fun for everyone anyway, i also approach obama as just the thing that generation of semi left activists had to get through to winnow the chaff. now black lives matter is trolling every candidate and getting them to say dumb shit back & get in trouble and thats nice.
none of it suggests a significant rupture in u.s. political history to me or the current mobilization of the masses behind a socialist line or anything like that but i like to see shit like this Michelle Alexander article in the nation. where she talks about the clintons assuming black support & points out that black americans were sold a line about demographically significant improvement for black wage earners under bill clinton but the actual unemployment rate for young non-college-educated black men jumped to close to 50% in his two terms because of the massive numbers who were put behind bars through bipartisan crime bills like the type hillary is getting reminded about. and she ends up saying dont vote for Clintonia but also, dont vote for any of the other candidates either.
which is a purely negative response but still what i like to see over many others and imo opens the lines for linking imperialism abroad with domestic oppression. i like the spreading of those real numbers around and its also why i reject arguments from bhpn and others about oh the black community is all bougie valued now there's no potential left for domestic anti-colonialism in the black community. go try to get books into prison for people thats a good way to change your mind on that is my opinion and the demand for communist literature has only grown since i first started doing that at like 18, and that is where a huge chunk of the black surplus labor army is headed sadly.
e: i'm fixing this as my note says below because people upvoted this, it's not an increase of around 50% over previous numbers that's cited above, but an increase to around 50% of the described population. which is damning.
Edited by cars ()
cars posted:opens the lines for linking imperialism abroad with domestic oppression
what are some of the ways in which you have approached this, by the way? this is always the hardest thing for me to communicate to liberals. like, in the span of one conversation it's hard to impart the reality of laborers being murdered in colombia so that you can buy coca-cola at your grocery store: "well, yeah, that's bad, but that's just how the system works, right?" etc. the expansion-of-markets angle is something that they can logically accept but it doesn't seem to make them budge at all or feel it. I've had some success framing these problems in terms of their own class interests, though: hey, you probably want better healthcare, less debt in general (less student loan debt!), better roads to drive on, etc., there's this thing called ~federal discretionary spending~ and wouldn't you know that the military automatically gets half of it every year and by the way why is that? and ...
one thing I have had some success pointing to with them as to the shortcomings of the bernie-mobile is that that particular fact is the crux of his whole campaign and to my knowledge he's not shouting it out at every chance he gets. "our system is built on the concentration of wealth and hence power. the structure of the class interests at the top of the system necessitates a constant expansion to facilitate new markets. so there's absolutely a connection between domestic policy and foreign policy. don't you think that if sanders saw his principles through then he would be trying to communicate that? also do you like the clash?"
(my edit here was to the sentence about vague understanding where i meant that the understanding exists in the audience whatever their class not that exploitation is class neutral in its objects.)
Edited by cars ()
cars posted:black americans were sold a line about demographically significant improvement for black wage earners under bill clinton but the actual unemployment rate for young non-college-educated black men jumped close to 50% in his two terms because of the massive numbers who were put behind bars through bipartisan crime bills
if you're citing these numbers, and i would, please note that I don't mean that the jump was that much over the previous number, rather that close to half of the non-college-educated young black men in the united states were unemployed by the end of Bill Clinton's presidency because of the amount of them that were jailed with the crowing approval of both bourgeois parties.
and the official unemployment numbers are rigged to hide this by not counting those in prison, unlike say, jesus christ did. mention that too imo
http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Bernie-Sanders-Says-US-Kill-List-Legal-Backs-Troops-in-Syria-20160426-0017.html
"Later Michels migrated to Italy and joined Benito Mussolini's Fascist Party, as he believed this was the next legitimate step of modern societies."
Larry Wilmore made fun of Obama and white liberals who love him and the audience was not having it. this is only funny because Colbert did the same thing to Bush and the liberal media thought it was the greatest thing ever and now the only thing being mentioned is the fact that Wilmore called the president 'nigga'.
glomper_stomper posted:someone link to the good parts. i want to see as little of a WHCD as humanly possible
The whole thing is actually good. Literally the majority of the humor is him uttering banned speech and then punctuating the awkward silence and booing with "am I right". Also he basically called Bernie a racist.
edit: is there an explanation posted somewhere about how to embed youtubes properly?
Edited by marimite ()
fuckin pilgrims
Themselves posted:fuckin pilgrims