First off I'm confident in a radical pluralist way, in that even if someone really does proclaim a nightmare global caliphate we're all supposed to be terrified of, I'm sure things will plug along more or less okay for most people.
Secondly I've never been convinced on the premise of ecological apocalypse and if global warming bakes the brains of a few billion people then that's bad but I can imagine worse fates if some of us survive. And if the whole world really did explode, the math seems to suggest that the universe would keep calm and carry on. As Mao said, "Even if the U.S. atom bombs were so powerful that, when dropped on China, they would make a hole right through the earth, or even blow it up, that would hardly mean anything to the universe as a whole, though it might be a major event for the solar system." That's the meaning of hope.
Thirdly I think that the socialist experiments of the mid-20th Century had a lot of interesting things happen in them and I don't have to invest all my faith in whether or not the liquidation of the kulaks was effected well enough. It seems to me that even if East Germans shot people in the back for trying to leave that the greater cause of socialism isn't all that negatively affected by that, in a cosmic sense, and being honest about it is a better policy than trying to prove that North Korea has a vibrant socialist economy.
Fourthy I'm not a Utopian and the main reason why we should embrace socialism is it seems to me that people generally shouldn't be bossed around by oafs. As Ed Abbey said, "Anarchism (sic) is not a romantic fable but the hardheaded realization, based on five thousand years of experience, that we cannot entrust the management of our lives to kings, priests, politicians, generals, and county commissioners."
Fifthly the whole hyper-Hegelian view of communism as some sort of spirit quest for proletarian redemption seems odd to me and if you dispense with that then you probably panic less about the inconsistency between stated values and terrible outcomes in most countries. I don't agree with Bertrand Russell much but this is one area I agree: "I do not regard Socialism as a gospel of proletarian revenge, nor even, primarily, as a means of securing economic justice. I regard it primarily as an adjustment to machine production demanded by considerations of common sense."
Anyway sorry for rambling today... I don't know why.
It's shocking but reading through their stuff there's not even a real attempt to make a case very fundamental to their entire position. Harris himself is mostly a rhetorician, he doesn't much like evidence. His preference is to play on intuitions - like the opening argument of The End of Faith where he breathlessly paints the picture of a young man suicide bombing a bus, and then says.....did you picture a Muslim man? A-ha! Then Islam is associated with violence after all.
which i think is painfully bad reasoning for a guy obsessed with projecting the image of a Spock-like hyper-reason philosopher. if anything I think all this demonstrates a deeply middle-class narcissism, obsession with image promotion, which is why he plays so well with a certain crowd. also, obviously its extremely anti-intellectual facist stuff. i shouldnt say more because ill waste my best material before releasing my Full Dossier.
Gibbonstrength posted:Harris himself is mostly a rhetorician, he doesn't much like evidence. His preference is to play on intuitions -
Hmmm.... Maybe he's not so bad after all.
cars posted:that's kind of a crazy looking thing to post though imo.
you say this, and then a few days later we get this gem of an article that's even crazier than my satire
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3739516/Why-despise-Jeremy-Corbyn-Nazi-stormtroopers-Jewish-Labour-donor-MICHAEL-FOSTER.html
Gibbonstrength posted:The funny thing about the New Atheist guys for me is how not once have they ever made a causal link between religion and behaviour, be it good or bad. Like Sam Harris attempts to do this with this phrenology experiment but its patently false and nobody in cognitive science or neuroscience pretends that that kind of localization study is anything but a joke anymore.
It's shocking but reading through their stuff there's not even a real attempt to make a case very fundamental to their entire position. Harris himself is mostly a rhetorician, he doesn't much like evidence. His preference is to play on intuitions - like the opening argument of The End of Faith where he breathlessly paints the picture of a young man suicide bombing a bus, and then says.....did you picture a Muslim man? A-ha! Then Islam is associated with violence after all.
which i think is painfully bad reasoning for a guy obsessed with projecting the image of a Spock-like hyper-reason philosopher. if anything I think all this demonstrates a deeply middle-class narcissism, obsession with image promotion, which is why he plays so well with a certain crowd. also, obviously its extremely anti-intellectual facist stuff. i shouldnt say more because ill waste my best material before releasing my Full Dossier.
One of the greatest jokes of life on this earth is that the smug new atheist crowd are just as intellectually bankrupt and fraudulent as the theologians they make fun of. They deserve each other.
If you want an exhaustive, honest, painstaking atheist treatise you can slog through the first half of God And Whose Army, by
getfiscal posted:Thirdly I think that the socialist experiments of the mid-20th Century had a lot of interesting things happen in them and I don't have to invest all my faith in whether or not the liquidation of the kulaks was effected well enough. It seems to me that even if East Germans shot people in the back for trying to leave that the greater cause of socialism isn't all that negatively affected by that, in a cosmic sense, and being honest about it is a better policy than trying to prove that North Korea has a vibrant socialist economy.
i sometimes think that in a potential future socialist society people will think of the 20th/21st century socialist states sort of like the way modern ideologically capitalist liberals think about states like renaissance venice or genoa, or the netherlands after the spanish got kicked out: historically and politically limited but foreshadowing a new historical development in which the elements that the society takes great pride in can be seen to originate
Orwell once said that a lot of socialists imagine the future like a person with a toothache. If you have a toothache and someone asks your hopes for the future you'll say you don't want to have a toothache. But when the toothache is gone you forget about the toothache and have to find some broader goals. Which is why that making sure everyone has food and a bed is a great thing, but it's not the end point of socialist society, it's the beginning point. You get rid of the grinding work day so that you can start to focus on things that you really care about.
getfiscal posted:I think you are right there but I also think it's possible most people won't care about capitalist society at all. To them it might be like sitting around debating whether one neanderthal clan fought another, just complete chaos with no relevance to their lives.
sure, but i think most people today dont give a shit about venice or genoa and probably even fewer would know why amsterdam would be relevant
getfiscal posted:People asked John Dolan to listen to the episode of Sam Harris' radio show
no joke i only read this far before preemptively upvoting this post.
Edited by le_nelson_mandela_face ()
getfiscal posted:The other problem is that the council is googling members and if they see that you were like "Fuck this, Miliband doesn't know how to eat a sandwich, I'm voting Green" in 2015, they will cancel your membership based on the principle that you're a supporter of another party. Which is an immoral decision but one that is rigorously upheld in the courts for the same basic reason that, like, the Catholic Church can't be taken to court to force it to offer communion to gays. This is actually the main reason this rule exists, too - it was developed as a sort of defensive weapon against Trotskyists, who would join en masse somewhere like Birmingham, take over the local Labour Party, and terrify all the people who wanted to win elections by embracing savage austerity. So they created 2 core rules which are replicated around the world in labour parties:
1. You can't be a member of a parallel political organization with a mandate separate from the interests of Labour Party as determined by national council.
2. You can't call for the creation of a new party while a member of the Labour Party, except through the statutes of the Labour Party.
This sound innocuous but are actually laser-targeted at Trotskyists and such, because Trotsky insisted on two core principles in relation to labour parties:
1. That revolutionary socialist organizations maintain their independence and not liquidate themselves into Labour Parties that they joined for tactical reasons.
2. To use work within Labour Parties to call for the creation of a new worker's party with a consistent socialist platform.
These rules were used to kick out large numbers of socialists, who eventually got the idea and jumped ship en masse in "open turns" into small parties that quickly faded into irrelevance. Meanwhile, people joined back up by saying they supported the two main rules by saying they weren't actually independent organizations (they organized around a paper called Socialist Appeal and such) and by saying they weren't calling for a new party (they said the Labour Party could become a revolutionary party), which is clever and also a lie.
In Canada, our social-democratic party has the same rules, although it hasn't used them too often recently, but there's a contested leadership race coming, so all bets are off. They did threaten to use them in a situation where our reformist youth party was overtaken by a Trotskyist group, but the situation was solved when the central party called for a quick second vote, which was then stacked by careerist types (the socialists couldn't afford to send everyone to a second rump c convention, obviously), ending the threat of relevance to the working class. The resolutions they put out in response to criticize the Trotskyists is worth posting here:
1. ONDY Commitments
Whereas the doctrines of Socialism, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism and Maoism run opposed to the NDP and CCF's principles of social democracy and co-operation;
...
And whereas much of the history of the party has been ordinary people fighting to define a social democracy outside of the confines of socialist rhetoric, socialist hierarchy and socialist thought control;
And whereas in many countries where the doctrine of Socialism is implemented, human rights are stomped, opposition is crushed and basic human dignity is impugned;
And whereas New Democrats support a co-operative commonwealth in Canada that cannot be accomplished through Socialist hierarchy, Socialist patronage, and Socialist idealogical orthodoxy;
And whereas New Democrats believe that a co-operative commonwealth in Canada can be built through the greater co-operation of peoples at the local level, elevating up in the form of co-operative and non-profit housing, banking institutions, farm production, stores and other units of the economy;
And whereas the doctrine of Socialism's centralization of power will ensure that a social democracy and locally built economy can never have happen;
Be it resolved that we in ONDY commit to the principles of social democracy, in solidarity with generations and generations of CCF/NDPers since the party and movement was founded;
Be it further resolved that we in ONDY condemn the doctrine of Socialism as generations of CCF/NDPers have and hopefully always will.
2. Trotskyism
Whereas it is longstanding tactic of Trotskyists ever since the 1930s to attempt to takeover and hijack social democratic organizations, a tactic called "entryism";
And whereas it is often the case that Trotskyists in ONDY vote as a block, having made their mind up on an issue before discussion occurs, to pursue their goals, where non-invading ONDYers may be more independent in their thoughts or choose to be in solidarity with the ONDY as a whole;
Whereas the tactic of "entryism" can be fatal to an organization, as was the case when the NDP of Australia was taken over and dismantled by the Trotskyists, as detailed in the article "How the Trots Destroyed the Nuclear Disarmament Party" by Peter Myers;
And whereas ONDY encourages the discussion of measures to implement social democratic principles, but does not entertain those that do not have those basic principles of social democracy and co-operation because those viewpoints are not humane and are foreign to the New Democratic Party and its predecessors;
And whereas the doctrines of Socialism, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism and Maoism run opposed to the NDP and CCF's principles of social democracy and co-operation;
And whereas there are many Communist political parties in Canada where Trotskyists can find a home;
Be it resolved that the Ontario New Democratic Youth approves and applauds the decision of the ONDY Executive to de-charter the Toronto Young New Democrats.
Be it further resolved that the Ontario New Democratic Youth will de-charter and dismember all Trotskyist blocks and organizations that may linger in ONDY, and actively prevent the takeover of ONDY conventions and councils.
3. Co-operative Exercises
Whereas we in ONDY believe the social democracy of our CCF/NDP is about local control, democracy, work and human dignity led by an individual sense of responsibility, solidarity and collective love;
And whereas we in ONDY believe this vision of Canada can only happen if citizens begin practicising more collective ways of living, working and playing;
Therefore be it resolved that ONDY conventions and councils include "co-operative" exercises where ONDYites participate and work together to achieve goals.
4. Committee of Social Democrats
Whereas the removal of the doctrine of Trotskyism from ONDY and its Communist centralization of power and poor treatment of people is a great stride toward the resurgence of social democracy and co-operation in ONDY that are the principles of New Democrats of the past, those greatest Canadians;
Whereas ONDYites are eager to explore co-operation and social democracy and to learn of how we can do this in our present society, soon:
Be it resolved that the ONDY convention form a committee of social democrats that will meet to learn about, research and actively do the principles of co-operation and social democracy that were articulated by the founders of the party and adapted over the years by New Democrats.
lmao that's so vile
Panopticon posted:cars posted:that's kind of a crazy looking thing to post though imo.
you say this, and then a few days later we get this gem of an article that's even crazier than my satire
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3739516/Why-despise-Jeremy-Corbyn-Nazi-stormtroopers-Jewish-Labour-donor-MICHAEL-FOSTER.html
the lesson is that satire can be too accurate
tpaine posted:Lord Skurdy Tafnell "Cockles" Farthingtonne III, Esq, Lord of Shropping's Git and Shadow Minister of Pakis and Chavs Who Nick Mobiles
Skurdy
Tafnell
Shropping's
Git
Nigga
You
Ain't
Lord
Shit
getfiscal posted:The other problem is that the council is googling members and if they see that you were like "Fuck this, Miliband doesn't know how to eat a sandwich, I'm voting Green" in 2015, they will cancel your membership based on the principle that you're a supporter of another party. Which is an immoral decision but one that is rigorously upheld in the courts for the same basic reason that, like, the Catholic Church can't be taken to court to force it to offer communion to gays. This is actually the main reason this rule exists, too - it was developed as a sort of defensive weapon against Trotskyists, who would join en masse somewhere like Birmingham, take over the local Labour Party, and terrify all the people who wanted to win elections by embracing savage austerity. So they created 2 core rules which are replicated around the world in labour parties:
1. You can't be a member of a parallel political organization with a mandate separate from the interests of Labour Party as determined by national council.
2. You can't call for the creation of a new party while a member of the Labour Party, except through the statutes of the Labour Party.
This sound innocuous but are actually laser-targeted at Trotskyists and such, because Trotsky insisted on two core principles in relation to labour parties:
1. That revolutionary socialist organizations maintain their independence and not liquidate themselves into Labour Parties that they joined for tactical reasons.
2. To use work within Labour Parties to call for the creation of a new worker's party with a consistent socialist platform.
These rules were used to kick out large numbers of socialists, who eventually got the idea and jumped ship en masse in "open turns" into small parties that quickly faded into irrelevance. Meanwhile, people joined back up by saying they supported the two main rules by saying they weren't actually independent organizations (they organized around a paper called Socialist Appeal and such) and by saying they weren't calling for a new party (they said the Labour Party could become a revolutionary party), which is clever and also a lie.
In Canada, our social-democratic party has the same rules, although it hasn't used them too often recently, but there's a contested leadership race coming, so all bets are off. They did threaten to use them in a situation where our reformist youth party was overtaken by a Trotskyist group, but the situation was solved when the central party called for a quick second vote, which was then stacked by careerist types (the socialists couldn't afford to send everyone to a second rump c convention, obviously), ending the threat of relevance to the working class. The resolutions they put out in response to criticize the Trotskyists is worth posting here:
1. ONDY Commitments
Whereas the doctrines of Socialism, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism and Maoism run opposed to the NDP and CCF's principles of social democracy and co-operation;
...
And whereas much of the history of the party has been ordinary people fighting to define a social democracy outside of the confines of socialist rhetoric, socialist hierarchy and socialist thought control;
And whereas in many countries where the doctrine of Socialism is implemented, human rights are stomped, opposition is crushed and basic human dignity is impugned;
And whereas New Democrats support a co-operative commonwealth in Canada that cannot be accomplished through Socialist hierarchy, Socialist patronage, and Socialist idealogical orthodoxy;
And whereas New Democrats believe that a co-operative commonwealth in Canada can be built through the greater co-operation of peoples at the local level, elevating up in the form of co-operative and non-profit housing, banking institutions, farm production, stores and other units of the economy;
And whereas the doctrine of Socialism's centralization of power will ensure that a social democracy and locally built economy can never have happen;
Be it resolved that we in ONDY commit to the principles of social democracy, in solidarity with generations and generations of CCF/NDPers since the party and movement was founded;
Be it further resolved that we in ONDY condemn the doctrine of Socialism as generations of CCF/NDPers have and hopefully always will.
2. Trotskyism
Whereas it is longstanding tactic of Trotskyists ever since the 1930s to attempt to takeover and hijack social democratic organizations, a tactic called "entryism";
And whereas it is often the case that Trotskyists in ONDY vote as a block, having made their mind up on an issue before discussion occurs, to pursue their goals, where non-invading ONDYers may be more independent in their thoughts or choose to be in solidarity with the ONDY as a whole;
Whereas the tactic of "entryism" can be fatal to an organization, as was the case when the NDP of Australia was taken over and dismantled by the Trotskyists, as detailed in the article "How the Trots Destroyed the Nuclear Disarmament Party" by Peter Myers;
And whereas ONDY encourages the discussion of measures to implement social democratic principles, but does not entertain those that do not have those basic principles of social democracy and co-operation because those viewpoints are not humane and are foreign to the New Democratic Party and its predecessors;
And whereas the doctrines of Socialism, Leninism, Trotskyism, Stalinism and Maoism run opposed to the NDP and CCF's principles of social democracy and co-operation;
And whereas there are many Communist political parties in Canada where Trotskyists can find a home;
Be it resolved that the Ontario New Democratic Youth approves and applauds the decision of the ONDY Executive to de-charter the Toronto Young New Democrats.
Be it further resolved that the Ontario New Democratic Youth will de-charter and dismember all Trotskyist blocks and organizations that may linger in ONDY, and actively prevent the takeover of ONDY conventions and councils.
3. Co-operative Exercises
Whereas we in ONDY believe the social democracy of our CCF/NDP is about local control, democracy, work and human dignity led by an individual sense of responsibility, solidarity and collective love;
And whereas we in ONDY believe this vision of Canada can only happen if citizens begin practicising more collective ways of living, working and playing;
Therefore be it resolved that ONDY conventions and councils include "co-operative" exercises where ONDYites participate and work together to achieve goals.
4. Committee of Social Democrats
Whereas the removal of the doctrine of Trotskyism from ONDY and its Communist centralization of power and poor treatment of people is a great stride toward the resurgence of social democracy and co-operation in ONDY that are the principles of New Democrats of the past, those greatest Canadians;
Whereas ONDYites are eager to explore co-operation and social democracy and to learn of how we can do this in our present society, soon:
Be it resolved that the ONDY convention form a committee of social democrats that will meet to learn about, research and actively do the principles of co-operation and social democracy that were articulated by the founders of the party and adapted over the years by New Democrats.
Do you have a link for this? Collecting evidence on how much the NDP sucks
an even larger mandate this time
purge the party jez, come on lad do it
kicked out of stop the war for trying to stop the war smdh
tears posted:my favorite corbyn moment was when he sat there like a little doofus as we called him and all the other labour aristocracy decievers "leading" the stop the war coalition traitors for paroting booj propaganda about gadaffi and the bombing of libya, then they kicked us out
kicked out of stop the war for trying to stop the war smdh
No offence but you sound like a retard.