babyhueypnewton posted:'terf' and 'tankie' are both memes that were probably created by the NSA to proliferate on the 'internet left' and slowly poison real life. politics is being memed and call out culture makes memes reign supreme.
i think tankie was around from like 1956?
babyhueypnewton posted:'terf' and 'tankie' are both memes that were probably created by the NSA to proliferate on the 'internet left' and slowly poison real life. politics is being memed and call out culture makes memes reign supreme.
Accidently upvoted this. On the one hand, TERFs claim to have a materialist view of gender, on the other hand my only experience with TERFs is reading blog posts two years ago.
Panopticon posted:babyhueypnewton posted:'terf' and 'tankie' are both memes that were probably created by the NSA to proliferate on the 'internet left' and slowly poison real life. politics is being memed and call out culture makes memes reign supreme.
i think tankie was around from like 1956?
True, the language of leftist politics was being poisoned atleast since the Cold War.
as for revisionists, i always say just beat the devil out of em.
fape posted:TERFs are real, and my enemies
Whether they are real or not is irrelevant to 'terf' being a meme discursively. It is the act of reducing a complex series of theoretical beliefs, many of which are incompatible, into an easily digestible (and commodifiable) word - and let's be clear the acronym 'terf' concept is far more significant to understand postmodern identity politics than what it supposedly 'stands for'. By then being used to turn politics into identities which are negotiated through social capital and create in and out groups based on information databases (replacing politics with negotiating data sets, history with memetic flatness, and meaning with canon), terf is structurally identical not only to 'SJW', 'cuck', 'tankie', 'liberal', 'racist', 'homophobe' but also 'goon', 'redditor', 'millenial', 'nerd', etc.
babyhueypnewton posted:Whether they are real or not is irrelevant to 'terf' being a meme discursively. It is the act of reducing a complex series of theoretical beliefs, many of which are incompatible, into an easily digestible (and commodifiable) word
people consistently and repeatedly referring to dworkin - who only ever wrote affirmatively about trans liberation issues - as a terf is a very good example of this.
it is interesting to reflect that malta and ireland have the most restrictive abortion laws in europe (ie not even if you're going to die, lady) and some of the most liberal w/r/t legal changing of gender identity. i think this tells us a lot about what choices are permissable and what choices are prohibited, and i think this deserves reflection.
babyhueypnewton posted:'SJW', 'cuck', 'tankie', 'liberal', 'racist', 'homophobe' but also 'goon', 'redditor', 'millenial', 'nerd', etc.
don't sign your posts
overfire posted:i have found terf to be a dogwhistle for anyone who doesn't agree that porn is liberating, prostitutes love prostitution, women wear makeup of their own volition, choice is endless under capitalism, gender is value-neutral and just one of these choices, etc
it is interesting to reflect that malta and ireland have the most restrictive abortion laws in europe (ie not even if you're going to die, lady) and some of the most liberal w/r/t legal changing of gender identity. i think this tells us a lot about what choices are permissable and what choices are prohibited, and i think this deserves reflection.
i have completely internalized identity politics to the point where i don't mind being publicly affiliated with communism other very left movements, but i will only try to approach the political and social meanings and issues (i.e. the individuality vs collectivism stuff overfire is mentioning) around e.g. third-wave feminism or transgenderism in private with my very closest friends and even then it's difficult
i don't think i'm the only one -- and i think these things become such minefields because people do internalize them more than anything else in daily middle class western life so talking about them is attacking the only thing they hold onto as "sacred" in a way anymore. it's not torture or religion, it's whether or not women should be fucking on camera or whatever. what weird places our society has gone.
i think if leftists like us were to take a consistent and very public stance on some of these things and write about it explicitly politically, it would get a lot of attention in the current media environment...
drwhat posted:i don't think i'm the only one -- and i think these things become such minefields because people do internalize them more than anything else in daily middle class western life so talking about them is attacking the only thing they hold onto as "sacred" in a way anymore. it's not torture or religion, it's whether or not women should be fucking on camera or whatever. what weird places our society has gone.
i feel i'm thread hijacking at this point and am considering moving this to a new one, but i'm new here, and i have never seen this conversation end well.
the backlash to even the weakest sauce feminist positions are so powerful now that i end up keeping my mouth shut, even though i believe that, as leftists, we really should be examining this way more closely.
c_man posted:the funny thing about about "terf" is that meghan murphy's posse have been backing themselves into a really bizarre corner in their struggle against "PC culture" (aka trans people) including but not limited to: linking snarky right wing op-eds about anti-Rhodes protestors, posts about how much they love the police, going on lecture tours with milo yiannopolis, etc
which is why i think it's important that leftists seriously engage in this.
i have seen and spoken out about people linking to spiteful breitbart articles and utter reactionary shite and been shouted down for "source policing." it's the same error dworkin and mackinnon made in the 80s by getting into bed with right wing christians in their fight against porn. it doesn't matter if you agree if it's for entirely different reasons, and it made it super easy for them to be denounced as moralising prudes and completely defeated, and now we live in a hellscape of porn on demand where teenage girls are presenting with anal fissures at the doctor bc their boyfriend saw it in porn and pressured them into it.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/11/teenage-girls-coerced-sex-survey
meanwhile, what do garbage mainstream feminist websites have to say about this?
http://feministing.com/2014/11/21/fucking-with-feministing-whats-the-deal-with-anal/
lube up ladies!
it is possible, and i think, crucial, to criticise gender ideology and choice feminism from a leftist position. anything less is incoherent
drwhat posted:i think if leftists like us were to take a consistent and very public stance on some of these things and write about it explicitly politically, it would get a lot of attention in the current media environment...
i think it's hopelessly naive to believe that organisations or voices that carry an oppositional stance to sex work or similar institutions receive anything but silence or blithe dismissal from the bourgeois press. even non-left organisations that conduct research on these questions on an institutionally respected basis - such as the various studies in support of the nordic model - are routinely ignored, while the meaningless and unsubstantiated narratives that affirm the conventional liberal narratives are repeated in every prevailing media outlet
blinkandwheeze posted:drwhat posted:i think if leftists like us were to take a consistent and very public stance on some of these things and write about it explicitly politically, it would get a lot of attention in the current media environment...
i think it's hopelessly naive to believe that organisations or voices that carry an oppositional stance to sex work or similar institutions receive anything but silence or blithe dismissal from the bourgeois press. even non-left organisations that conduct research on these questions on an institutionally respected basis - such as the various studies in support of the nordic model - are routinely ignored, while the meaningless and unsubstantiated narratives that affirm the conventional liberal narratives are repeated in every prevailing media outlet
but prostitution empowers women
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MVdUs4XQBI
overfire posted:it's the same error dworkin and mackinnon made in the 80s by getting into bed with right wing christians in their fight against porn.
i've seen this alleged a lot, but i don't think i've ever seen any evidence of this other than a small handful of right wing figures offering some vague support of their proposals against pornography (as opposed to any real or active collaboration on any front)
i'm inclined to be skeptical toward these kinds of accusations because they're the exact form of slander that radical perspectives will receive no matter what actually happened - they could have shot down the christian right at every turn and still been painted as supporting their values.
blinkandwheeze posted:drwhat posted:i think if leftists like us were to take a consistent and very public stance on some of these things and write about it explicitly politically, it would get a lot of attention in the current media environment...
i think it's hopelessly naive to believe that organisations or voices that carry an oppositional stance to sex work or similar institutions receive anything but silence or blithe dismissal from the bourgeois press. even non-left organisations that conduct research on these questions on an institutionally respected basis - such as the various studies in support of the nordic model - are routinely ignored, while the meaningless and unsubstantiated narratives that affirm the conventional liberal narratives are repeated in every prevailing media outlet
Here's a concrete example that evidences how that plays out, particularly interesting to note the huge resources put by OSF to construct the media narrative.
http://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/05/12/unethical-practices-produce-new-york-times-sex-work-story/
overfire posted:which is why i think it's important that leftists seriously engage in this.
not to mention that if your concern is sexualized violence and trafficking of women, trans women are also exposed to these things so orienting yourself away from trans struggles it strikes me as backwards and boneheaded to orient yourself as something distinct and opposed to trans liberation struggles
c_man posted:meghan murphy's posse
this is the person who wrote the article about how burlesque is boring now anyway right. i read that at the barber, good shit.
cars posted:this is the person who wrote the article about how burlesque is boring now anyway right. i read that at the barber, good shit.
im not gonna die on the hill of "meghan murphy is bad" because in a lot of ways i dont think she is, im mostly talking about how people in the same orbit as her orienting themselves against trans struggles has led fairly directly to promoting reactionary views, and minimizing aspects of the struggle that they closely identify with (sexual violence, prostitution, etc) as having anything to do with trans struggles
overfire posted:a weird sickness that seems to have infected feminism in a very acute and particular way. taking a firm, principled stance is now seen as moralising, as restricting women's "choice," which apparently happens in a vacuum. objecting to concepts that would intuitively be seen as harmful to women 20-30 years ago, within feminism as a movement at least, like prostitution or pornography, is now instead seen as a personal attack on the women trapped within them and equated with religious moralising. the real goal, which is liberating women from patriarchy, has been replaced with a bizarre, imaginary "autonomy"-anything a woman chooses is obviously good and right for that woman and should not be criticised. criticising a woman's choice is misogynistic.
that weird sickness is the cultural logic of neoliberalism, which attempts to subvert any formerly radical movements based around communal efforts resisting economic and political oppression of all forms into ones instead celebrating autonomy, individualism, and "choice", which also just happens to easily inject itself into the capitalist economy. cf: my lego movie essay
what i will say is that there is a world of difference between criticising an ideology and people's choices within a limited framework and being reactionary. i am plenty critical of the idea of beauty and women's coercion into conforming to ridiculous standards. many women, people i love and care about, tell me they do beauty for them, and patriarchy does not come into the equation-that they choose to engage in ritualised femininity freely. i do not believe this to be true, and patriarchy functions very well if people believe their actions exist in a vacuum and that ideology plays no part. does this mean that i dislike these women, that i think they should not exist? no. it means i think they are mistaken and that abolishing gender would help them immensely. it would help trans people too. fetishising gender and codifying it as a sacred identity is not the answer.
a woman is not a feeling. a man is not a feeling.
trans stuff has been really really damaging for lesbians too. a lot of people don't have a dog in this fight-so they just don't really think about it and where genderism/queer theory logic leads, so they assume gender critical ideology comes from a place of bigotry. i really g2g but i can expand on that later. i guess i just wanted to say that this criticism comes from a place of liberation, not hatred, and i guess i will have to hope people take my word that i am arguing in good faith.
ps Ufuk_Surekli really appreciate you looking that stuff up for me, i'm p much sold. i will get over my crippling capitalist alienation that has resulted in terror of other people and get to a meeting
overfire posted:ps Ufuk_Surekli really appreciate you looking that stuff up for me, i'm p much sold. i will get over my crippling capitalist alienation that has resulted in terror of other people and get to a meeting
I hope you find it liberating to meet, discuss communism and engage in actual action with people who uphold an anti-revisionist marxist-leninist line and are generally very good people who care deeply about the working class who will probably all be executed or sent to prison some time in the near future by the fascist british governement
that's right
overfire posted:as being perceived in any way as "anti-trans" is probably one of the most unpopular views around right now,
the PC police is coming for you
Should we just accept that as our fate and make the best of it?
xipe posted:Is there any way to reject identity politics and sex work without looking like a dour, joyless and privileged sourpuss?
Should we just accept that as our fate and make the best of it?
me irl
xipe posted:Is there any way to reject identity politics and sex work without looking like a dour, joyless and privileged sourpuss?
Should we just accept that as our fate and make the best of it?
it's the structures of capital that create and reinforce the social ideas & viewpoints that inform those judgments anyway. people already think you're dour and joyless because you have a political thought or opinion and actually want to talk about it. what a fucking drag, go get laid or something
xipe posted:Is there any way to reject identity politics and sex work without looking like a dour, joyless and privileged sourpuss?
meme's, just meme's
Edited by overfire ()