c_man posted:holy wow, if only there were a website, where someone could articulate an agenda for black radicalism. maybe they could do reports on it or something. that sure would be useful, much more useful than drawing up a fantasy-sports style lineup of my vision of how politics works.
i hate your posting a lot
babyhueypnewton posted:but what Malcolm X called the "black bourgeoisie" is perhaps better thought of as a labor aristocracy since its wealth primarily comes from ties to the administration of black politics rather than business investment or truly elite institutions.
i don't really understand what you're arguing here. what is the basis for this wealth that is somehow not connected to either the investment of private industry or "elite institutions"? what are the institutions of this administration of black politics that are capable of supporting an ascendent labour aristocracy independently?
under the obama administration, the underemployment of white, hispanic and asian americans has consistently decreased while that of black americans has significantly increased. if we include active prison populations, this figure is even more substantial. in terms of real material basis, the general share of black americans in any form of labour aristocracy have fallen under the administration as opposed to any form of expansion
as far as i understand it, you're suggesting that this general tendency is countervailed by the increasing development of an internal labour aristocracy within the black nation? however i don't understand why this would be distinct from any previous notions of a "black bourgeoisie" - you point to this distinction being based on an independent base of wealth for this emerging class but i have no idea what you're suggesting that actually is
babyhueypnewton posted:fape posted:
babyhueypnewton posted:
not only are bathrooms one of the only places left in which pre-capitalist morality allows women to have spaces of autonomy and collective identity against the atomizated identity of capitalism
Are we still talking about trans people here? Trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's bathrooms because biological women use them to hide from the oppression of capitalism?
I've never received a decent explanation for why trans people shouldn't have their own bathrooms. i fully admit this may be a deficiency on my part.
well, sure. what exactly does trans mean, and how many genders are there, exactly? Restrooms for transwomen and restrooms for transmen? But what about other trans identities? Who needs to be separated from whom? How many different bathrooms are we ending up with here, 4, 5? More? Or if it's not feasible for every business to operate and maintain 5 or more bathrooms, should all trans people be relegated into one trans restroom? I'm sure you can see the problems in that. Obviously the response many spaces come up with is unisex bathrooms, but those are a cop-out for reasons that people in thsi thread have already brought up
that doesn't preclude the idea of safe spaces as spaces to organize, and it doesn't even preclude the idea of bathrooms being in that category (sounds absurd on its face, but, e.g., a woman pulling a friend into the bathroom to determine her ability to genuinely consent to a man's advances would count as far as i'm concerned)
c_man posted:holy wow, if only there were a website, where someone could articulate an agenda for black radicalism. maybe they could do reports on it or something. that sure would be useful, much more useful than drawing up a fantasy-sports style lineup of my vision of how politics works.
I like BAR but they are not communists. In fact they are explicitly the left wing of the Green Party. But as far as I can tell they advocate black community control of the police, the government, and the economy and oppose imperialism. this makes them 100 times better than trots, anarchists, and most white socialists in general but I'm skeptical that they have a real plan to address the black misleadership class beyond propaganda. I'm far more interested in the NABPP-PC which takes Huey Newton's theory of intercommunialism seriously and roots the present black radical movement in the separation between the growing lumpenproletariat struggle and the lack of proletarian politics. this is not tied to old ideas of Afrikan nationalism (despite the name) and instead anticipates the real changes that are happening in the global economy and the response of the black labor aristocracy to increasing competition.
http://rashidmod.com/?p=1282
fape posted:babyhueypnewton posted:fape posted:
babyhueypnewton posted:
not only are bathrooms one of the only places left in which pre-capitalist morality allows women to have spaces of autonomy and collective identity against the atomizated identity of capitalism
Are we still talking about trans people here? Trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's bathrooms because biological women use them to hide from the oppression of capitalism?
I've never received a decent explanation for why trans people shouldn't have their own bathrooms. i fully admit this may be a deficiency on my part.well, sure. what exactly does trans mean, and how many genders are there, exactly? Restrooms for transwomen and restrooms for transmen? But what about other trans identities? Who needs to be separated from whom? How many different bathrooms are we ending up with here, 4, 5? More? Or if it's not feasible for every business to operate and maintain 5 or more bathrooms, should all trans people be relegated into one trans restroom? I'm sure you can see the problems in that. Obviously the response many spaces come up with is unisex bathrooms, but those are a cop-out for reasons that people in thsi thread have already brought up
why are you defending the logic of capitalists? if trans people determine that they need 5 bathrooms then they should fight for those rights instead of being part of a neoliberal effort to retake bathrooms from working class women. This struggle has been sold to you as one of discrimination and in a sense that is right, this is a matter of integration against separation. but communists have a real solution that is entirely different. the working class should make the entire factory into a bathroom (metaphorically speaking).
blinkandwheeze posted:babyhueypnewton posted:but what Malcolm X called the "black bourgeoisie" is perhaps better thought of as a labor aristocracy since its wealth primarily comes from ties to the administration of black politics rather than business investment or truly elite institutions.
i don't really understand what you're arguing here. what is the basis for this wealth that is somehow not connected to either the investment of private industry or "elite institutions"? what are the institutions of this administration of black politics that are capable of supporting an ascendent labour aristocracy independently?
under the obama administration, the underemployment of white, hispanic and asian americans has consistently decreased while that of black americans has significantly increased. if we include active prison populations, this figure is even more substantial. in terms of real material basis, the general share of black americans in any form of labour aristocracy have fallen under the administration as opposed to any form of expansion
as far as i understand it, you're suggesting that this general tendency is countervailed by the increasing development of an internal labour aristocracy within the black nation? however i don't understand why this would be distinct from any previous notions of a "black bourgeoisie" - you point to this distinction being based on an independent base of wealth for this emerging class but i have no idea what you're suggesting that actually is
this isn't really my fault since this argument is from another thread which c_man brought up to slander me. I am simply defending myself but obviously the context is missing. but yeah my contention is that black labor aristocracy is centered around local, regional, and city politics which is tapped into every once in a while when Hillary needs to whip up some votes. whereas white labor aristocracy took place in the unions and state/national politics, blacks have never been able to establish themselves here. if you think this isn't significantly different than the "black bourgeoisie" that's probably fine, I just think the terminology is poor.
babyhueypnewton posted:I'm far more interested in the NABPP-PC which takes Huey Newton's theory of intercommunialism seriously and roots the present black radical movement in the separation between the growing lumpenproletariat struggle and the lack of proletarian politics. this is not tied to old ideas of Afrikan nationalism (despite the name) and instead anticipates the real changes that are happening in the global economy and the response of the black labor aristocracy to increasing competition.
these guys look cool too, thanks
Edited by fape ()
babyhueypnewton posted:if trans people determine that they need 5 bathrooms then they should fight for those rights instead of being part of a neoliberal effort to retake bathrooms from working class women
catch phrase
babyhueypnewton posted:but yeah my contention is that black labor aristocracy is centered around local, regional, and city politics which is tapped into every once in a while when Hillary needs to whip up some votes
the fact that you think this says anything about the potential for black radical politics is exactly my point, that point being that you consistently confuse the state of affairs as presented by bourgeois ideology (e.g. black political expression is limited to being Hillary props that get wheeled about as necessary, or that trans people's bathroom use as an Elite Liberal Incursion on Normal Folks) as something other than an illusion generated for narrative control
they're too busy aligning their ass with the earth's magnetic field to busy themselves with such petty matters
http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/318/art%253A10.1186%252F1742-9994-10-80.pdf?originUrl=http%3A%2F%2Ffrontiersinzoology.biomedcentral.com%2Farticle%2F10.1186%2F1742-9994-10-80&token2=exp=1463605397~acl=%2Fstatic%2Fpdf%2F318%2Fart%25253A10.1186%25252F1742-9994-10-80.pdf*~hmac=500bf7e41eb5c387a452552921874ba147f2c99b1d3816bd6239e6a584b60e6b
Ufuk_Surekli posted:this is where our fundamental talking at cross-purposes is happening. you seem to think we are saying something like "we should accomplish the wholesale defeat of capitalism in order to make toilets the way we want them"
this is basically what baby newton is saying though. he has presented the issue of trans restroom use as
babyhueypnewton posted:part of a neoliberal effort to retake bathrooms from
working class women.
if you think that this is not true, then maybe you disagree with him that
babyhueypnewton posted:a real solution is entirely different. the working class should make the entire factory into a bathroom (metaphorically speaking).
edit: fwiw i basically agree with your post
Edited by c_man ()
Admitting Nurse: Dr. BabyHuey, what should we do?
Dr. BH: Give him no treatment! For he will never be truly healed, until we dismantle the systems of oppression which allow him to be stabbed!
Ufuk_Surekli posted:this is where our fundamental talking at cross-purposes is happening. you seem to think we are saying something like "we should accomplish the wholesale defeat of capitalism in order to make toilets the way we want them". you are mistaken. we are saying "we should accomplish the wholesale defeat of capitalism. this has no bearing on the optimisation of toilets, and vice versa"
toilet optimisation can easily occur without the overthrow of capitalism, and the overthrow of capitalism can easily occur without toilet optimisation. or, they could occur simultaneously, or, neither of them could occur. they are completely unrelated conditions.
people who are particularly interested in toilet optimisation should sort it out however they like. the same people should also stop trying to shoehorn this single-issue controversy with nothing to do with the important, urgent work of communists, into communist political space
You're talking about toilet optimisation, I'm talking about trans women being beaten and raped because they are forced to use male restrooms, where trans women are commonly beaten and raped
edit let me expand on this a little. BHPN is arguing that trans women have no place in traditional female restrooms and that they should instead organize and fight for their own restrooms. I pointed out that that would take decades of hard work and activism to accomplish, and that trans women should, not yet being able to escape to the safety of their own restroom, should be allowed in women's restrooms, where they tend to not be beaten and/or raped.
Edited by fape ()
babyhueypnewton posted:the working class should make the entire factory into a bathroom
fuck yeaaaah *pulls down pants*
babyhueypnewton posted:(metaphorically speaking).
oh *shits on floor anyway*
fape posted:Ufuk_Surekli posted:people who are particularly interested in toilet optimisation should sort it out however they like. the same people should also stop trying to shoehorn this single-issue controversy with nothing to do with the important, urgent work of communists, into communist political space
edit let me expand on this a little. BHPN is arguing that trans women have no place in traditional female restrooms and that they should instead organize and fight for their own restrooms. I pointed out that that would take decades of hard work and activism to accomplish, and that trans women should, not yet being able to escape to the safety of their own restroom, should be allowed in women's restrooms, where they tend to not be beaten and/or raped.
People who are particularly interested in this issue of restroom safety should sort it out however they like. The same people should also stop trying to shoehorn this single-issue controversy with nothing to do with the important, urgent work of communists, into communist political space.
edit: i have found and now recant this post
Edited by swampman ()
The common solution is apparent: down with rape culture and the society that creates rapists.
the fact that the media facing trans and feminist spokespeople don't/can't(see the reaction against dworkin) propose that solution shows the limitations placed upon them by the ruling ideology. let's not get caught up in their battles, this is the rhizzone, a place for friends.
maybe this thread should have more of this:
otoh it probably would not work in texas. but what does.
I don't think it's invalid to discuss "what should we do irl, today, about topic x" even though that question implies that you are doing a thing today that isn't "communist revolution now". like we've been on this merry-go-round a million times: we still have to live in reality as it exists today, so we might as well try to make it ok in the ways and interstices in which it can be improved while also aiming for larger change (or the one big change).
you personally can choose to not have an opinion on bathroom allocation or whatever because your excuse is your only opinion about everything is "revolution now" but eventually no one will ever ask you your opinion on anything then?
anyway we're all just sublimating our opinions on transgenderism in general into this bathroom topic, let's just dig in and start flinging factory floor shit at each other about biological gender, aw yeah