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getfiscal
getfiscal
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating:
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could you narrate an alternative political project that could emerge from this widespread dissatisfaction? if hamas and fatah have a pretty tight grip on service delivery and security (relative to minor actors) then where would the new force coalesce? would it be a sort of dissident factional movement that spins off from one one or the other in particular localities? what sorts of things might they unite around and what would be the outcome of such organizing? obviously you can't answer all those but that's what i was thinking when you said the above.
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getfiscal
getfiscal
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating:
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yes that's sort of what i was getting at in the other thread. that at a certain level the situation is so hyper-administrated despite the misleading chaotic situation of the people involved. resources are concentrated in such a way that paralyzes the center. it'd be like being in a prison camp, which is a cliche but true: your job in a prison camp is to survive on the chance that you'll get an opportunity to get out, and probably only if some outside force changes the game.
but it's far more important to ask what you and i should be doing. i said to you once that it was langston hughes' poetic formula for dealing with racism: laugh, eat well and grow strong. that is, enjoy your days, keep abreast of the news and learn skills (theory) that might apply to a fissure/opportunity to be exploited. but is it just a matter of doing so from within rich first world countries? or is our responsibility translation between particular communities we feel solidarity with and our own perspectives/interests/needs?
but it's far more important to ask what you and i should be doing. i said to you once that it was langston hughes' poetic formula for dealing with racism: laugh, eat well and grow strong. that is, enjoy your days, keep abreast of the news and learn skills (theory) that might apply to a fissure/opportunity to be exploited. but is it just a matter of doing so from within rich first world countries? or is our responsibility translation between particular communities we feel solidarity with and our own perspectives/interests/needs?
[account deactivated]
getfiscal
getfiscal
Mike Nelson here.
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+
i suppose it depends on your broader goals. i'm very skeptical that you could do anything from "the inside" of the american government. but my prejudice is more that i feel like my life should contribute something that someone else can't easily do rather than taking up a simple position within existing society. that is, you have the goal of building a family and sort of helping where you can while understanding problems, i think, so you are looking for a good job. my goal is more to find a weak spot and push as hard as i can. if that makes sense, maybe i just haven't gone through the extreme exposure to hardship that you have yet and i'm dreaming. like i'm not looking for a job so much as a calling.
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babyfinland
babyfinland
tardy on these heaters
Post rating:
~
Salvaging September:
An ICAHD Statement regarding the Palestinian Statehood Initiative at the UN
by the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions
The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD) has been one of the leading critical Israeli peace and human rights organizations struggling for Palestinian rights during its more than 14 years of existence. ICAHD activists resist the demolition of Palestinian homes, both inside Israel and in the Occupied Territory, and together with our Palestinian and International partners, we have rebuilt 175 homes as political acts of resistance to Occupation. Besides our resistance efforts "on the ground," we engage in a vigorous campaign of international advocacy on behalf of a just peace. In this we are aided by our branches abroad -- ICAHD UK, ICAHD US, and ICAHD Finland -- as well as by hundreds of civil society groups around the world with which we work.
Where, then, do we stand on the question of the PLO/PA's September initiative? As non-Palestinians, ICAHD activists do not advocate for a particular solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Overall, we subscribe to the three basic principles embodied in the Palestinian Civil Society Call: (1) ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall; (2) recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and (3) respecting, protecting, and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194. Believing that it is the Palestinian people's right to determine what they consider a just peace and it is our role as their Israeli partners to support them -- with one caveat: that any solution be inclusive of all the people residing in Palestine/Israel -- we will follow the lead of our Palestinian partners regarding particular initiatives or resolutions to the conflict.
As non-Palestinians, we find ourselves in a bind regarding "September." During the months leading up to the approach to the UN in late September, and especially in the last couple weeks, we have received mixed messages from our Palestinian civil society partners. Most Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and Israel seem to be sitting out the September initiative at the UN -- although Marwan Barghouti did issue an impassioned plea for international support and involvement from his prison cell. One influential Palestinian commentator has called September a "non-event"; others, especially in the Palestinian Diaspora, are actively opposing it.
Even Abbas himself seems reluctant to go the UN. He recently told a group of visiting Israeli intellectuals that his post-September priorities are to "negotiate, negotiate, negotiate ." But he is trapped by the high expectations the idea has generated around the world. The half-hearted juggernaut moves on towards the fateful date of September 21st.
Now, just two or three weeks before the approach to the UN, a fierce debate has erupted within the Palestinian community around a number of key questions:
Will the September initiative be based on the recognition of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders? If so, then what does Abbas want to negotiate with Israel? Minor territorial adjustments or a return to the fruitless trap of negotiations of the past 20 years which render the 1967 borders irrelevant?
Who, in the absence of elections to the PNC or a referendum, has authorized Abbas to pursue a two-state solution? Even if he does approach the UN in his capacity as the head of the PLO and with the backing of its Executive Committee, will the Palestinian Authority, on becoming the recognized Government of the State of Palestine, replace the PLO and thus disenfranchise half the Palestinian people? In particular, would the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders compromise the refugees' right of return and the national rights of Palestinians within Israel?
Does recognition of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders foreclose forever the emergence of a single state in historic Palestine, be it democratic or bi-national, or will it permit further political efforts and evolution in that direction?
Until these questions are answered, it would be difficult for ICAHD to support the September initiative. This, however, raises two key issues. First, how do we deal with the fallout of September? Regardless of internal Palestinian politics and the genuine problematics of Abbas's approach to the UN, "September" is going to happen. With only a week to go, the PLO/PA's game plan is still not clear, but a General Assembly vote would undoubtedly see the vast majority of the international community recognizing Palestinian statehood within the 1967 borders.
What is our game plan? How will we channel the energy, if not euphoria, of the "day after" -- or the anger and despair if, in fact, nothing happens on the ground? While many Palestinian intellectuals and organizations of the left are critical of the initiative, the Palestinian "street" is nevertheless organizing for the non-violent assertion of their national rights, including marches on settlements. What can be done so as not to abandon them? And what about the expectations that have been raised amongst the thousands of activists around the world who have devoted so much time and effort to the Palestinian cause over the years? If "September" simply fizzles, will they stay the course? Most important, what if the General Assembly vote does turn out to be a genuine game-changer, if it releases a political dynamic that neither the PA nor Israel nor any other actor can control -- the resignation or collapse of the PA if, in fact, nothing does change in the occupied territory, perhaps triggering an Israeli re-occupation of the cities of the West Bank and Gaza? How should we respond?
The second issue arises from the first: no struggle for Palestinian rights can be pursued without the leadership of the Palestinian people -- which, for ICAHD and many activists around the world, means our partner organizations on the Palestinian left, be they inside Palestine or abroad. The popular committees and other activists "on the ground" play a key role in keeping the struggle alive and focused, but they have no political program. On the level of international advocacy, boycotts, divestment, sanctions (BDS) has become a powerful campaign vehicle for raising public awareness of the Palestinian issue; in fact, ICAHD was one of the first Israeli organizations to endorse it. But, in the end, it is merely a tool. It cannot replace a multi-faceted political strategy.
Two requirements for an effective post-September program seem evident: our Palestinian civil society partners should articulate a clear vision of where they see the struggle headed, if not a detailed program; and all of us working for Palestinian self-determination -- Palestinian, Israeli, and international activists alike -- should hold urgent and critical discussions regarding our next steps. Our activism and our campaigns need to be accompanied by Palestinian-led strategizing, together with far more coordination and communication. We in ICAHD believe that the vote at the UN -- or even a non-vote in the UN -- is going be a game-changer. At least it is likely to clear the table of all the obstacles to pursuing a truly just peace: fruitless negotiations, the two-state "solution," and, very possibly, the PA itself, which has too long enabled Israel to prolong its occupation. We must be prepared for that shifting of the political ground. We must be pro-active, united, and effective.
ICAHD, then, will respect the internal disagreement among its Palestinian partners. ICAHD has long argued that the two-state solution, which has anyway been buried under the Israeli settlements, cannot serve as a just and workable solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict. We would have supported the initiative as a stage in achieving full national rights for the Palestinian people, but since our partners have raised concerns that the recognition of Palestinian state in the 1967 borders will foreclose those rights, and given the level of opposition, ICAHD will basically "sit it out." We find this a painful decision, because we believe that civil society engagement in the political process is crucial. Our dilemma certainly highlights the need for all of us to be more strategic and pro-active, so we don't get caught in such political paralysis.
Remaining concerned over how to deal with the fallout of the September initiative, we urge the convening of a regular forum of consultation among all civil society activists, which can be networked if the issue of leadership is a problem. We remain committed to the struggle for Palestinian self-determination. We stand in solidarity with the people suffering on the ground, in the refugee camps as well as in the occupied Palestinian territory, and we look forward to close cooperation as we develop effective political strategies for achieving a just peace and equality for all the people of Palestine/Israel.
An ICAHD Statement regarding the Palestinian Statehood Initiative at the UN
by the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions
The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD) has been one of the leading critical Israeli peace and human rights organizations struggling for Palestinian rights during its more than 14 years of existence. ICAHD activists resist the demolition of Palestinian homes, both inside Israel and in the Occupied Territory, and together with our Palestinian and International partners, we have rebuilt 175 homes as political acts of resistance to Occupation. Besides our resistance efforts "on the ground," we engage in a vigorous campaign of international advocacy on behalf of a just peace. In this we are aided by our branches abroad -- ICAHD UK, ICAHD US, and ICAHD Finland -- as well as by hundreds of civil society groups around the world with which we work.
Where, then, do we stand on the question of the PLO/PA's September initiative? As non-Palestinians, ICAHD activists do not advocate for a particular solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Overall, we subscribe to the three basic principles embodied in the Palestinian Civil Society Call: (1) ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall; (2) recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and (3) respecting, protecting, and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194. Believing that it is the Palestinian people's right to determine what they consider a just peace and it is our role as their Israeli partners to support them -- with one caveat: that any solution be inclusive of all the people residing in Palestine/Israel -- we will follow the lead of our Palestinian partners regarding particular initiatives or resolutions to the conflict.
As non-Palestinians, we find ourselves in a bind regarding "September." During the months leading up to the approach to the UN in late September, and especially in the last couple weeks, we have received mixed messages from our Palestinian civil society partners. Most Palestinians in the Occupied Territories and Israel seem to be sitting out the September initiative at the UN -- although Marwan Barghouti did issue an impassioned plea for international support and involvement from his prison cell. One influential Palestinian commentator has called September a "non-event"; others, especially in the Palestinian Diaspora, are actively opposing it.
Even Abbas himself seems reluctant to go the UN. He recently told a group of visiting Israeli intellectuals that his post-September priorities are to "negotiate, negotiate, negotiate ." But he is trapped by the high expectations the idea has generated around the world. The half-hearted juggernaut moves on towards the fateful date of September 21st.
Now, just two or three weeks before the approach to the UN, a fierce debate has erupted within the Palestinian community around a number of key questions:
Will the September initiative be based on the recognition of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders? If so, then what does Abbas want to negotiate with Israel? Minor territorial adjustments or a return to the fruitless trap of negotiations of the past 20 years which render the 1967 borders irrelevant?
Who, in the absence of elections to the PNC or a referendum, has authorized Abbas to pursue a two-state solution? Even if he does approach the UN in his capacity as the head of the PLO and with the backing of its Executive Committee, will the Palestinian Authority, on becoming the recognized Government of the State of Palestine, replace the PLO and thus disenfranchise half the Palestinian people? In particular, would the establishment of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders compromise the refugees' right of return and the national rights of Palestinians within Israel?
Does recognition of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders foreclose forever the emergence of a single state in historic Palestine, be it democratic or bi-national, or will it permit further political efforts and evolution in that direction?
Until these questions are answered, it would be difficult for ICAHD to support the September initiative. This, however, raises two key issues. First, how do we deal with the fallout of September? Regardless of internal Palestinian politics and the genuine problematics of Abbas's approach to the UN, "September" is going to happen. With only a week to go, the PLO/PA's game plan is still not clear, but a General Assembly vote would undoubtedly see the vast majority of the international community recognizing Palestinian statehood within the 1967 borders.
What is our game plan? How will we channel the energy, if not euphoria, of the "day after" -- or the anger and despair if, in fact, nothing happens on the ground? While many Palestinian intellectuals and organizations of the left are critical of the initiative, the Palestinian "street" is nevertheless organizing for the non-violent assertion of their national rights, including marches on settlements. What can be done so as not to abandon them? And what about the expectations that have been raised amongst the thousands of activists around the world who have devoted so much time and effort to the Palestinian cause over the years? If "September" simply fizzles, will they stay the course? Most important, what if the General Assembly vote does turn out to be a genuine game-changer, if it releases a political dynamic that neither the PA nor Israel nor any other actor can control -- the resignation or collapse of the PA if, in fact, nothing does change in the occupied territory, perhaps triggering an Israeli re-occupation of the cities of the West Bank and Gaza? How should we respond?
The second issue arises from the first: no struggle for Palestinian rights can be pursued without the leadership of the Palestinian people -- which, for ICAHD and many activists around the world, means our partner organizations on the Palestinian left, be they inside Palestine or abroad. The popular committees and other activists "on the ground" play a key role in keeping the struggle alive and focused, but they have no political program. On the level of international advocacy, boycotts, divestment, sanctions (BDS) has become a powerful campaign vehicle for raising public awareness of the Palestinian issue; in fact, ICAHD was one of the first Israeli organizations to endorse it. But, in the end, it is merely a tool. It cannot replace a multi-faceted political strategy.
Two requirements for an effective post-September program seem evident: our Palestinian civil society partners should articulate a clear vision of where they see the struggle headed, if not a detailed program; and all of us working for Palestinian self-determination -- Palestinian, Israeli, and international activists alike -- should hold urgent and critical discussions regarding our next steps. Our activism and our campaigns need to be accompanied by Palestinian-led strategizing, together with far more coordination and communication. We in ICAHD believe that the vote at the UN -- or even a non-vote in the UN -- is going be a game-changer. At least it is likely to clear the table of all the obstacles to pursuing a truly just peace: fruitless negotiations, the two-state "solution," and, very possibly, the PA itself, which has too long enabled Israel to prolong its occupation. We must be prepared for that shifting of the political ground. We must be pro-active, united, and effective.
ICAHD, then, will respect the internal disagreement among its Palestinian partners. ICAHD has long argued that the two-state solution, which has anyway been buried under the Israeli settlements, cannot serve as a just and workable solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict. We would have supported the initiative as a stage in achieving full national rights for the Palestinian people, but since our partners have raised concerns that the recognition of Palestinian state in the 1967 borders will foreclose those rights, and given the level of opposition, ICAHD will basically "sit it out." We find this a painful decision, because we believe that civil society engagement in the political process is crucial. Our dilemma certainly highlights the need for all of us to be more strategic and pro-active, so we don't get caught in such political paralysis.
Remaining concerned over how to deal with the fallout of the September initiative, we urge the convening of a regular forum of consultation among all civil society activists, which can be networked if the issue of leadership is a problem. We remain committed to the struggle for Palestinian self-determination. We stand in solidarity with the people suffering on the ground, in the refugee camps as well as in the occupied Palestinian territory, and we look forward to close cooperation as we develop effective political strategies for achieving a just peace and equality for all the people of Palestine/Israel.
[account deactivated]
babyfinland
babyfinland
tardy on these heaters
Post rating:
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discipline posted:
ICAHD owns imo
One of the Good Ones
babyfinland
babyfinland
tardy on these heaters
Post rating:
~
Palestinian song "Blue Chair" mocks PA’s UN statehood bid
A group of Palestinian youth activists who were sick of the western media protraying the Palestinians as a collective entity regarding the Palestinian Authority’s UN bid have produced a satirical video and song titled “Blue Chair”. In its simple sing-song lyrics, the video highlights sarcastically the fact that supporters of statehood have become obsessed with “magical” chairs rather than basic human rights. The lyrics, translated from Arabic, are below.
In one of the many Palestinian Authority (PA) campaigns to draw up support for UN membership, a mock Palestine UN chair was sent to travel around the world before reaching its final destination, naturally the United Nations building in New York. In the increasingly contested discourse about the PA’s bid for recognition of statehood, the symbolism the chair held won over many people as it carried with it the romanticized connotations of the world finally recognizing a Palestinian state.
Unfortunately, the same supporters fail to realize that this is basically just a PR stunt designed by the PA (who have forgotten the little scandal called the Palestine Papers and have vowed to resume negotiations with Israel) as the US will make good on its promise and veto such a request. Additionally, “statehood” is but a nonsensical diversion, drawing the attention of many to belittle the Palestinian cause — either knowingly or not — to a mere question: “Should Palestine be granted the right to statehood or not?”
A state on the 1967 borders is fruitless in that it cancels out the refugees’ right of return and impossible in that the land in the West Bank is not contiguous by virtue of the hundreds of illegal Israeli settlements and outposts. Furthermore, there are no specific “Arab only” roads or means that connect the West Bank to Gaza, which remains under siege. What is most sickening is the fact that the campaign carries the slogan “Palestine 194” signifying Palestine as the 194th member of the United Nations, while simultaneously abusing the number that holds so much significance for refugees as it is UN resolution 194 passed in 1948 that guarantees the Right of Return.
Compounded by the fact that the PA carries no legitimacy over the majority of the Palestinian people, in the diaspora and from within, the bid for statehood is nonrepresentative and fails to address the occupation directly, the crux of the whole conflict.
Translated lyrics:
A group of Palestinian youth activists who were sick of the western media protraying the Palestinians as a collective entity regarding the Palestinian Authority’s UN bid have produced a satirical video and song titled “Blue Chair”. In its simple sing-song lyrics, the video highlights sarcastically the fact that supporters of statehood have become obsessed with “magical” chairs rather than basic human rights. The lyrics, translated from Arabic, are below.
In one of the many Palestinian Authority (PA) campaigns to draw up support for UN membership, a mock Palestine UN chair was sent to travel around the world before reaching its final destination, naturally the United Nations building in New York. In the increasingly contested discourse about the PA’s bid for recognition of statehood, the symbolism the chair held won over many people as it carried with it the romanticized connotations of the world finally recognizing a Palestinian state.
Unfortunately, the same supporters fail to realize that this is basically just a PR stunt designed by the PA (who have forgotten the little scandal called the Palestine Papers and have vowed to resume negotiations with Israel) as the US will make good on its promise and veto such a request. Additionally, “statehood” is but a nonsensical diversion, drawing the attention of many to belittle the Palestinian cause — either knowingly or not — to a mere question: “Should Palestine be granted the right to statehood or not?”
A state on the 1967 borders is fruitless in that it cancels out the refugees’ right of return and impossible in that the land in the West Bank is not contiguous by virtue of the hundreds of illegal Israeli settlements and outposts. Furthermore, there are no specific “Arab only” roads or means that connect the West Bank to Gaza, which remains under siege. What is most sickening is the fact that the campaign carries the slogan “Palestine 194” signifying Palestine as the 194th member of the United Nations, while simultaneously abusing the number that holds so much significance for refugees as it is UN resolution 194 passed in 1948 that guarantees the Right of Return.
Compounded by the fact that the PA carries no legitimacy over the majority of the Palestinian people, in the diaspora and from within, the bid for statehood is nonrepresentative and fails to address the occupation directly, the crux of the whole conflict.
Translated lyrics:
The blue chair
This is the story of a magical blue chair… A blue chair that will
travel, soar and fly!
It comes in dark blue…and in white, Palestine, is drawn (2X)
This chair…is not just any chair (2X)
This chair is an extraordinary and magical kind!
This blue chair…can rise high
This blue chair…can achieve
It can a bring us a state
This chair is one magical blue chair!
This is the story of a magical blue chair…a blue chair that will
travel, soar and fly
It comes in dark blue…and in white, Palestine, is drawn
This Chair…is not just any Chair (2X)
This chair is an extraordinary and magical kind!
This blue chair… a chair for our refugees
This blue chair…will give us our “Right of Return”
This chair…will give us back Jerusalem and Palestine
This is the story of a magical blue chair…a blue chair that will
travel, soar and fly
It comes in dark blue…and in white, Palestine, is drawn
This Chair…is not just any Chair (2X)
This chair…is of an extraordinary kind
We’ve got our blue chair…with its own number too
An enemy to the settlements it serves
We are the Palestinians…with our magically dangerous blue chair
We are people…not like any other people
We are people… who have fallen in love with chairs!
aerdil
aerdil
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israel is gonna annex everything
vampirarchist
vampirarchist
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Turkey is going to champion Palestine and Israel is going to champion the Kurds and it will be awkward for everyone involved.
HenryKrinkle
HenryKrinkle
hi
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HenryKrinkle
HenryKrinkle
hi
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slightly OT, but Ali Abunimah just linked to my blog like five minutes ago.
germanjoey
germanjoey
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HenryKrinkle posted:
slightly OT, but Ali Abunimah just linked to my blog like five minutes ago.
same. just kidding.
babyfinland
babyfinland
tardy on these heaters
Post rating:
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HenryKrinkle posted:
slightly OT, but Ali Abunimah just linked to my blog like five minutes ago.
i linked to your moms blog last night
SomeIsraeliFuck
SomeIsraeliFuck
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~
babyfinland
babyfinland
tardy on these heaters
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my boy pepe escobar: http://www.corbettreport.com/interview-371-pepe-escobar/
[account deactivated]
mistersix
mistersix
desire be, desire go
Post rating:
~
getfiscal posted:
could you narrate an alternative political project that could emerge from this widespread dissatisfaction? if hamas and fatah have a pretty tight grip on service delivery and security (relative to minor actors) then where would the new force coalesce? would it be a sort of dissident factional movement that spins off from one one or the other in particular localities? what sorts of things might they unite around and what would be the outcome of such organizing? obviously you can't answer all those but that's what i was thinking when you said the above.
they're contained laterally. israel controls the skies.... only one way to go. this is how an underdark begins. im only half joking. one obvious problem is susceptibility to gas, like prairie dogs (not actually dogs, no disrespect meant). but i think that could be engineered around?
mistersix
mistersix
desire be, desire go
Post rating:
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HenryKrinkle posted:
slightly OT, but Ali Abunimah just linked to my blog like five minutes ago.
congratulations henry. hes a cool dude
getfiscal
getfiscal
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating:
~
damn. a guy i disliked because he said he supported the greek socialist government, who is running for the leadership of canada's new democrats, put out a letter today saying that canada needs to recognize palestine one way or another, and explicitly said that israel hadn't been a good partner for peace.
cars
cars
UNUSUALY COOL
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ok
postposting
postposting
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bad shit
Themselves
Themselves
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trot world problems
Barbarossa
Barbarossa
Post rating:
+
How long will it take to capture Gaza? 2 days
Will Hamas be killed? Yes
Total Palestinian civillian casualties: 500 dead
Total military casualties Palestine: 3000 dead
Total military casualties Israel: 15 dead
Will the Hamas army regulars hold the lines? No
Will Hamas fight to the end? No
Will chem/bio weapons be used on invading troops?: Yes
Will Hamas launch attacks on the Israeli civilians? Yes
Will Hamas launch attacks on Israel? No
-If yes; will Isreal retaliate harshly? Yes
Will Hamas sacrifice Gaza (gas/nuke it)? No
Will the Golan Heights make a grab for independence? Yes
Will Iran do anything silly like try for land? Yes
Will Hamas burn the olive trees? Yes
How long will the Israe be occupying Gaza? ~15 years
Will the war catalyze increased terrorism in Israel?No
In the long run, will this war be good or bad for the world? Good
We have to look at what those civilian casualties are- just because they're civilian doesn't make them innocent! Lets take a look at a few possibilities:
1) A civilian walking down the street to market gets killed by a cruise missile fired at the market.
2) A civilian asleep in their house is killed when their house is targetting by a smart bomb and blown up.
OK, these two are regrettable innocents being killed- but since Israel doesn't make a habit of targetting markets or houses, they're very small in number!
3) A civilian working at a chemical weapon factory gets killed when the chemical weapon plant is bombed.
4) A civilian security guard at a hospital is killed when the weapons explode.
5) A civilian contractor repairing a water desalination plant is killed by a MOAB dropped on the unit.
6) A civilian engineer is killed when the military command center he works at is destroyed.
7) A civilian delivering snackiecakes to the Hamas bunker vending machines eats a 5,000lb bunker buster.
etc, etc. The list goes on. My point is that there are a lot of civilians directly supporting the military that aren't exactly "innocent" and would be mire rightly counted among the military casualties than civilian. I'm a civilian and work for the Israeli military, but I acknowledge I'm also a valid military target because of what I do. And I think the vast majority of civilian casualties in this campaign will not be innocent.
Will Hamas be killed? Yes
Total Palestinian civillian casualties: 500 dead
Total military casualties Palestine: 3000 dead
Total military casualties Israel: 15 dead
Will the Hamas army regulars hold the lines? No
Will Hamas fight to the end? No
Will chem/bio weapons be used on invading troops?: Yes
Will Hamas launch attacks on the Israeli civilians? Yes
Will Hamas launch attacks on Israel? No
-If yes; will Isreal retaliate harshly? Yes
Will Hamas sacrifice Gaza (gas/nuke it)? No
Will the Golan Heights make a grab for independence? Yes
Will Iran do anything silly like try for land? Yes
Will Hamas burn the olive trees? Yes
How long will the Israe be occupying Gaza? ~15 years
Will the war catalyze increased terrorism in Israel?No
In the long run, will this war be good or bad for the world? Good
We have to look at what those civilian casualties are- just because they're civilian doesn't make them innocent! Lets take a look at a few possibilities:
1) A civilian walking down the street to market gets killed by a cruise missile fired at the market.
2) A civilian asleep in their house is killed when their house is targetting by a smart bomb and blown up.
OK, these two are regrettable innocents being killed- but since Israel doesn't make a habit of targetting markets or houses, they're very small in number!
3) A civilian working at a chemical weapon factory gets killed when the chemical weapon plant is bombed.
4) A civilian security guard at a hospital is killed when the weapons explode.
5) A civilian contractor repairing a water desalination plant is killed by a MOAB dropped on the unit.
6) A civilian engineer is killed when the military command center he works at is destroyed.
7) A civilian delivering snackiecakes to the Hamas bunker vending machines eats a 5,000lb bunker buster.
etc, etc. The list goes on. My point is that there are a lot of civilians directly supporting the military that aren't exactly "innocent" and would be mire rightly counted among the military casualties than civilian. I'm a civilian and work for the Israeli military, but I acknowledge I'm also a valid military target because of what I do. And I think the vast majority of civilian casualties in this campaign will not be innocent.
Barbarossa
Barbarossa
Post rating:
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serious answer I predict thousands of casualties, perhaps even tens of thousands, of course all on the Palestinian side. I fear a bloodbath
babyhueypnewton
babyhueypnewton
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+
lot of solutions in this thread that aren't full communism. for shame
ArisVelouchiotis
ArisVelouchiotis
Post rating:
+
norman finkelstein and mouin rabbani vs. lieutenant colonel bill kilgore
URIzjnD8zXY
URIzjnD8zXY
Edited by ArisVelouchiotis ()
Superabound
Superabound
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating:
+
Israel will not stop until they kill every last child in Palestine. for He is again risen--in a new body--and they cannot suffer the Christchild to live
gyrofry
gyrofry
Kurdt
Post rating:
+++++
i predict the IDF will continue to DDoS the rhizzone
Panopticon
Panopticon
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M
ART
O
ART
O
ArisVelouchiotis
ArisVelouchiotis
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+
Barbarossa
Barbarossa
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Norman Finkelstein is a God among ants. Also haha the beginning of that crosstalk has the host 'casually' walking out of the wings of the stage in a real awkward way, this is important to share
ArisVelouchiotis
ArisVelouchiotis
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Barbarossa posted:Also haha the beginning of that crosstalk has the host 'casually' walking out of the wings of the stage in a real awkward way
Will fear be a factor for these three? Let's find out.
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Barbarossa
Barbarossa
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its awkward like when you bust in on your dad jerking off and he's like "oh, just checking the fly lures here in the shed where I keep my fishing tools" but you both know, you know. free goatstein
cars
cars
UNUSUALY COOL
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getfiscal posted:i suppose it depends on your broader goals. i'm very skeptical that you could do anything from "the inside" of the american government. but my prejudice is more that i feel like my life should contribute something that someone else can't easily do rather than taking up a simple position within existing society. that is, you have the goal of building a family and sort of helping where you can while understanding problems, i think, so you are looking for a good job. my goal is more to find a weak spot and push as hard as i can. if that makes sense, maybe i just haven't gone through the extreme exposure to hardship that you have yet and i'm dreaming. like i'm not looking for a job so much as a calling.
cars
cars
UNUSUALY COOL
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getfiscal posted:yes that's sort of what i was getting at in the other thread. that at a certain level the situation is so hyper-administrated despite the misleading chaotic situation of the people involved. resources are concentrated in such a way that paralyzes the center. it'd be like being in a prison camp, which is a cliche but true: your job in a prison camp is to survive on the chance that you'll get an opportunity to get out, and probably only if some outside force changes the game.
but it's far more important to ask what you and i should be doing. i said to you once that it was langston hughes' poetic formula for dealing with racism: laugh, eat well and grow strong. that is, enjoy your days, keep abreast of the news and learn skills (theory) that might apply to a fissure/opportunity to be exploited. but is it just a matter of doing so from within rich first world countries? or is our responsibility translation between particular communities we feel solidarity with and our own perspectives/interests/needs?
babyfinland
babyfinland
tardy on these heaters
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They call us now.
Before they drop the bombs.
The phone rings
and someone who knows my first name
calls and says in perfect Arabic
“This is David.”
And in my stupor of sonic booms and glass shattering symphonies
still smashing around in my head
I think "Do I know any Davids in Gaza?"
They call us now to say
Run.
You have 58 seconds from the end of this message.
Your house is next.
They think of it as some kind of war time courtesy.
It doesn’t matter that
there is nowhere to run to.
It means nothing that the borders are closed
and your papers are worthless
and mark you only for a life sentence
in this prison by the sea
and the alleyways are narrow
and there are more human lives
packed one against the other
more than any other place on earth
Just run.
We aren’t trying to kill you.
It doesn’t matter that
you can’t call us back to tell us
the people we claim to want aren’t in your house
that there’s no one here
except you and your children
who were cheering for Argentina
sharing the last loaf of bread for this week
counting candles left in case the power goes out.
It doesn’t matter that you have children.
You live in the wrong place
and now is your chance to run
to nowhere.
It doesn’t matter
that 58 seconds isn’t long enough
to find your wedding album
or your son’s favorite blanket
or your daughter’s almost completed college application
or your shoes
or to gather everyone in the house.
It doesn’t matter what you had planned.
It doesn’t matter who you are
Prove you’re human.
Prove you stand on two legs.
Run.
Running Orders by Lena Khalaf Tuffaha
Before they drop the bombs.
The phone rings
and someone who knows my first name
calls and says in perfect Arabic
“This is David.”
And in my stupor of sonic booms and glass shattering symphonies
still smashing around in my head
I think "Do I know any Davids in Gaza?"
They call us now to say
Run.
You have 58 seconds from the end of this message.
Your house is next.
They think of it as some kind of war time courtesy.
It doesn’t matter that
there is nowhere to run to.
It means nothing that the borders are closed
and your papers are worthless
and mark you only for a life sentence
in this prison by the sea
and the alleyways are narrow
and there are more human lives
packed one against the other
more than any other place on earth
Just run.
We aren’t trying to kill you.
It doesn’t matter that
you can’t call us back to tell us
the people we claim to want aren’t in your house
that there’s no one here
except you and your children
who were cheering for Argentina
sharing the last loaf of bread for this week
counting candles left in case the power goes out.
It doesn’t matter that you have children.
You live in the wrong place
and now is your chance to run
to nowhere.
It doesn’t matter
that 58 seconds isn’t long enough
to find your wedding album
or your son’s favorite blanket
or your daughter’s almost completed college application
or your shoes
or to gather everyone in the house.
It doesn’t matter what you had planned.
It doesn’t matter who you are
Prove you’re human.
Prove you stand on two legs.
Run.
Running Orders by Lena Khalaf Tuffaha