#1
[account deactivated]
#2
Post rating: +
Even if they may be on the "wrong side" of this argument, I feel for the Israeli children who are too young to understand what is going on.

The pain of being dispossessed from your home is universal.
#3
tardy on these heaters
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bong_san_suu_kyi posted:

Even if they may be on the "wrong side" of this argument, I feel for the Israeli children who are too young to understand what is going on.

The pain of being dispossessed from your home is universal.

#4
Mike Nelson here.
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seems to me like people should be allowed to live where they want to live. israelis should be able to live in the west bank, palestinians should be able to live in israel. you can't hug with nuclear arms.
#5
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getfiscal posted:

seems to me like people should be allowed to live where they want to live. israelis should be able to live in the west bank, palestinians should be able to live in israel. you can't hug with nuclear arms.



israelis shouldn't be able to live.... at all mwuahah FYAD b*tch

#6
hi
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getfiscal posted:

seems to me like people should be allowed to live where they want to live. israelis should be able to live in the west bank, palestinians should be able to live in israel. you can't hug with nuclear arms.

this is why single-state solution + citizenship for palestinians is the best of all worlds.

#7
Mike Nelson here.
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HenryKrinkle posted:

this is why single-state solution + citizenship for palestinians is the best of all worlds.

meanwhile back on earth

#8
tardy on these heaters
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HenryKrinkle posted:

getfiscal posted:

seems to me like people should be allowed to live where they want to live. israelis should be able to live in the west bank, palestinians should be able to live in israel. you can't hug with nuclear arms.

this is why single-state solution + citizenship for palestinians is the best of all worlds.



ya lets sweep half a century of colonization under the liberal democratic table

#9
Mike Nelson here.
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babyfinland posted:

ya lets sweep half a century of colonization under the liberal democratic table

i'm listening....

#10
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babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:
getfiscal posted:
seems to me like people should be allowed to live where they want to live. israelis should be able to live in the west bank, palestinians should be able to live in israel. you can't hug with nuclear arms.
this is why single-state solution + citizenship for palestinians is the best of all worlds.


ya lets sweep half a century of colonization under the liberal democratic table



well it's worth a shot i guess, nothing else seems to work and those Palestinians would still enjoy more rights than most other Arab countries.

#11
hi
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babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

getfiscal posted:

seems to me like people should be allowed to live where they want to live. israelis should be able to live in the west bank, palestinians should be able to live in israel. you can't hug with nuclear arms.

this is why single-state solution + citizenship for palestinians is the best of all worlds.

ya lets sweep half a century of colonization under the liberal democratic table

what r u proposing?

#12
tardy on these heaters
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HenryKrinkle posted:

babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

getfiscal posted:

seems to me like people should be allowed to live where they want to live. israelis should be able to live in the west bank, palestinians should be able to live in israel. you can't hug with nuclear arms.

this is why single-state solution + citizenship for palestinians is the best of all worlds.

ya lets sweep half a century of colonization under the liberal democratic table

what r u proposing?



i'm not an expert so i don't really have developed positions on this but it's not as simple as just expanding civil rights to the colonized population

#13
tardy on these heaters
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bong_san_suu_kyi posted:

babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:
getfiscal posted:
seems to me like people should be allowed to live where they want to live. israelis should be able to live in the west bank, palestinians should be able to live in israel. you can't hug with nuclear arms.
this is why single-state solution + citizenship for palestinians is the best of all worlds.


ya lets sweep half a century of colonization under the liberal democratic table

well it's worth a shot i guess, nothing else seems to work and those Palestinians would still enjoy more rights than most other Arab countries.



the other arab states are as much a part of the zionist chessboard as israel and palestinian authority are

#14
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Perhaps, but it’s a little tiresome hearing that hundreds of millions of people are kept down by 6.
#15
hi
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post-apartheid South Africa is neo-liberal yet it's still better than apartheid South Africa.
#16
tardy on these heaters
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HenryKrinkle posted:

post-apartheid South Africa is neo-liberal yet it's still better than apartheid South Africa.



youre proposing a halfway incrementalist solution as something desirable when it is neither principled nor pragmatic so what do you want me to say

#17
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Henry's proposed solution is obviously full of landmines but maybe the colorblindness of an unleashed neo-liberal market will help smooth over old prejudices and begin to construct a platform of possible peace.
#18
hi
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my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalizations and land reform.
#19
tardy on these heaters
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HenryKrinkle posted:



my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalization and land reform.



what about the right of return

#20
hi
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babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:



my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalization and land reform.

what about the right of return

i thought that's implied by the "giving palestinians israeli citizenship" part.

#21
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discipline posted:

The state had appealed to the High Court on Friday, requesting it reconsider its decision to evacuate and demolish the illegally-built structures of the Ulpana neighborhood, which were built on private Palestinian land,

“We’ve been done over,” one political activist said


this is like zuccotti park all over again. solidarity with these brave activists. occupy everything.

#22
tardy on these heaters
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HenryKrinkle posted:

babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:



my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalization and land reform.

what about the right of return

i thought that's implied by the "giving palestinians israeli citizenship" part.



they are two seperate issues. right of return means people getting their homes back

#23
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babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:


my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalization and land reform.


what about the right of return



Quick question. Would the right of return simply involve exiled Palestinians coming back and being allowed to live or would it involve reparations and the restoration of land rights and such?

Because I'll support this as long as Jews are allowed to return to their livelihoods and communities in Baghdad, Sana'a, Tunis etc.

#24
tardy on these heaters
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bong_san_suu_kyi posted:

babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:


my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalization and land reform.


what about the right of return

Quick question. Would the right of return simply involve exiled Palestinians coming back and being allowed to live or would it involve reparations and the restoration of land rights and such?

Because I'll support this as long as Jews are allowed to return to their livelihoods and communities in Baghdad, Sana'a, Tunis etc.



it's some form of the latter, yes

there's no prohibition on jewish emigration to iraq, yemen or tunisia, so

#25
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babyfinland posted:

bong_san_suu_kyi posted:
babyfinland posted:
HenryKrinkle posted:


my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalization and land reform.


what about the right of return
Quick question. Would the right of return simply involve exiled Palestinians coming back and being allowed to live or would it involve reparations and the restoration of land rights and such?

Because I'll support this as long as Jews are allowed to return to their livelihoods and communities in Baghdad, Sana'a, Tunis etc.


it's some form of the latter, yes

there's no prohibition on jewish emigration to iraq, yemen or tunisia, so



So if a Jew from Haifa goes to the yemeni government and says "yo i'm back with my extended family to reclaim Goldman jewellers in downtown Aden" or whatever, that's something that will be accepted and embraced by the Yemeni government?

#26
tardy on these heaters
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bong_san_suu_kyi posted:

babyfinland posted:

bong_san_suu_kyi posted:
babyfinland posted:
HenryKrinkle posted:


my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalization and land reform.


what about the right of return
Quick question. Would the right of return simply involve exiled Palestinians coming back and being allowed to live or would it involve reparations and the restoration of land rights and such?

Because I'll support this as long as Jews are allowed to return to their livelihoods and communities in Baghdad, Sana'a, Tunis etc.


it's some form of the latter, yes

there's no prohibition on jewish emigration to iraq, yemen or tunisia, so

So if a Jew from Haifa goes to the yemeni government and says "yo i'm back with my extended family to reclaim Goldman jewellers in downtown Aden" or whatever, that's something that will be accepted and embraced by the Yemeni government?



the right of return is part of international law, there are no claims by israeli jews on yemen so no probably not. the right of return is for refugees and other displaced populations, not people who leave their country voluntarily

#27
tardy on these heaters
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i mean i understand that its problematic to say that jews left, say, iraq, voluntarily but its sort of a moot point since there's no claim brought to the UN by the iraqi-israeli community
#28
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Ok that’s a fair enough distinction. It still however, raises the question of why Jews who left their homes in Arab countries have been able to find homes in the arms of their Jewish brothers while the Palestinians have found little sympathy apart from being used as a political pawn.
#29
lies half the time
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bong_san_suu_kyi posted:

Ok that’s a fair enough distinction. It still however, raises the question of why Jews who left their homes in Arab countries have been able to find homes in the arms of their Jewish brothers while the Palestinians have found little sympathy apart from being used as a political pawn.



could it be because you are projecting a shared identity upon disparate peoples?

#30
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ialdabaoth posted:

bong_san_suu_kyi posted:
Ok that’s a fair enough distinction. It still however, raises the question of why Jews who left their homes in Arab countries have been able to find homes in the arms of their Jewish brothers while the Palestinians have found little sympathy apart from being used as a political pawn.


could it be because you are projecting a shared identity upon disparate peoples?



Jews helped Jews, so I don't see why muslim Arabs can't help muslim Arabs.

#31
tardy on these heaters
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ialdabaoth posted:

bong_san_suu_kyi posted:

Ok that’s a fair enough distinction. It still however, raises the question of why Jews who left their homes in Arab countries have been able to find homes in the arms of their Jewish brothers while the Palestinians have found little sympathy apart from being used as a political pawn.

could it be because you are projecting a shared identity upon disparate peoples?



pan-arabism is a real thing though

i'd argue that national solidarity is a western conception and the social structure of the middle east isn't conducive to ethnic solidarity groups the way western europe and north america is. arabs were stupid to revolt against the ottomans on nationalist terms but hey

#32
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I'd say the last 18 months have seem some pretty convincing pan-Arab solidarity.

In identity if not organization.

I do understand the circumstances of Israel being the last settler state and the unique situation this puts the Palestinians in but it would be nice if they had some support from their kin.
#33
Nippon
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its pretty unfair to declare by fiat that conquest is an unfair means of land acquisition after about ten millennia of it being totally cool.
#34
tardy on these heaters
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bong_san_suu_kyi posted:

I'd say the last 18 months have seem some pretty convincing pan-Arab solidarity.

In identity if not organization.

I do understand the circumstances of Israel being the last settler state and the unique situation this puts the Palestinians in but it would be nice if they had some support from their kin.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Social_Nationalist_Party

#35
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babyfinland posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

:trout:

my point was that as far as freedom of movement goes a single-state democracy is ideal. of course when you involve other issues such as economics and an equalized infrastructure it will involve more drastic measures such as nationalization and land reform.

what about the right of return

the astronomical crime rate in south africa is taking care of that to some extent.

#36
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Goethestein posted:

its pretty unfair to declare by fiat that conquest is an unfair means of land acquisition after about ten millennia of it being totally cool.


israel was not fundamentally the product of conquest

#37
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Petrol posted:

Goethestein posted:
its pretty unfair to declare by fiat that conquest is an unfair means of land acquisition after about ten millennia of it being totally cool.

israel was not fundamentally the product of conquest



???

#38
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bong_san_suu_kyi posted:

Petrol posted:

Goethestein posted:
its pretty unfair to declare by fiat that conquest is an unfair means of land acquisition after about ten millennia of it being totally cool.

israel was not fundamentally the product of conquest

???


i should say, rather: not simply the product of conquest

#39
Post rating: ~
Establish strict 2012 borders. Then, in 2057, establish strict 2057 borders.
#40
Post rating: +
in his essay on liberation herbert marcuse makes the point that merely to be on the side of revolution from even just an intellectual perspective already puts you on the wrong side of the law as such --

it's of course insane to rejoice at the death of soldiers overseas who could very well be your friends or in-laws, and it's a definite madness to think that wiping out the life of a tiny infant if it is that of a zionist settler is hilarious, but for true revolutionaries, every moment alive is a distillation of the misery of humanity as a whole, and every move closer to the end, every eye whose line of sight lands unrepentantly on the scene of human suffering and which as such cannot but swear to death its allegiance to Death. . . every day is hell until heaven