#161

SovietFriends posted:

I think the analysis needs to a step beyond the proceduralizing that occurs in organisations and look more at the actual nature of organisations in the movement today since if we dont look at that we can end up just assuming its an organisational problem we can fix rather then a problem with the idea of trying to mirror past revolutionary structures.

The fact is that something needs to be produced which can utilize the organisational mechanics an organisation provides in particular producing incentives for actual education and responsibility as well as being open like the more general structures that actual movements produce for making sure people can miss out the sectarianism, individuation, stratification, proceduralizing and reification that mirroring past revolutionary structures produces.

Fixing that is a very real problem which in my view has undercut at least the left in the UK more then actual ideological debates (though not as much as material conditions cos this is about organising re: the movement) and I reckon part of solving it would be being prepared to distill the essential role of the vanguard party outside of its traditional structure and make it a bit more "Connolly Club" style.


It was rubbish when she ignored me. I said her name twice and then just had to sit in silence looking at my phone cos I had bought a stay in coffee and didnt bring a book. At one point I kicked the table leg and it did that thing where the coffee just spills out a little bit all over your hand and on the table as well.

She wasnt my comrade as well.
Comrades dont let personlity get in the way...
(Plus she was in a different organisation which I used to spend alot of time slagging off)

Well I think it's proof of the nonessential role of the vanguard party. personally. Or at least the vanguard party can't arise among USA/UK leftists. People are too comfortable and there are no options but to participate in global imperialism, and personal politics are irrelevant to that.

#162
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#163

swampman posted:

Well I think it's proof of the nonessential role of the vanguard party. personally. Or at least the vanguard party can't arise among USA/UK leftists. People are too comfortable and there are no options but to participate in global imperialism, and personal politics are irrelevant to that.



I wouldn't go that far it for sure would arise in the right circumstances. That has been obvious in every spark that has come about in even the imperialist states.

Its just that the pre movement configuration does nothing to help build that and if anything can feed into the contradictions that help stop those sparks every actually developing even if they are configured along apparently perfect anti imperialist lines.

The abstracted role of the vanguard party is essential to revolution its just that the vanguard party as a mirror of the russian chinese communist parties or even guerrilla groups like fidels crew is trying to take lessons from the wrong area of life.

tpaine posted:

She wasn't my comrade...*strings*



“It's hard to tell who has your back, from who has it long enough just to stab you in it....”

Nicole Richie

Edited by SovietFriends ()

#164

What does the SWP's way of dealing with sex assault allegations tell us about the left?

How do we deal with sexual violence on the left? Here's a case study.

The Socialist Workers' Party, for those who aren't familiar with it already, is a political organisation of several thousand members which has been a prominent force on the British left for more than 30 years. They are at the forefront of the fight against street fascism in Britain, were a large organising presence in the student and trade union movement over the past several years, and are affiliated with large, active parties in other countries, like Germany's Die Linke. Many of the UK's most important thinkers and writers are members, or former members.

Like many others on the left in Britain, I've had my disagreements with the SWP, but I've also spoken at their conferences, drunk their tea, and have a lot of respect for the work they do. They are not a fringe group: they matter. And it matters that right now, the party is exploding in messy shards because of a debate about sexism, sexual violence and wider issues of accountability.

This week, it came to light that when allegations of rape and sexual assault were made against a senior party member, the matter was not reported to the police, but dealt with 'internally' before being dismissed. According to a transcript from the party's annual conference earlier this month, not only were friends of the alleged rapist allowed to investigate the complaint, the alleged victims were subject to further harassment. Their drinking habits and former relationships were called into question, and those who stood by them were subject to expulsion and exclusion.

Tom Walker - a party member who walked out this week in disgust - explained that feminism "is used effectively as a swear word by the leadership’s supporters.... it is deployed against anyone who seems ‘too concerned’ about issues of gender."

In a brave and principled resignation statement published yesterday, Walker said that:

". . . there is clearly a question mark over the sexual politics of many men in powerful positions on the left. I believe the root of this is that, whether through reputation, lack of internal democracy or both, these are often positions that are effectively unchallengeable. Not for nothing have recent sex abuse allegations in the wider world focused on the idea of a ‘culture of impunity’. Socialist Worker has pointed to the way that institutions close up to protect powerful people within them. What is not acknowledged is that the SWP is itself an institution in this sense, with its instinct for self-protection to survive. As previously mentioned, its belief in its own world-historic importance gives a motive for an attempted cover-up, making abusers feel protected."

Members are now leaving the organisation, or being expelled, in large numbers after the case came to light at the party's conference and transcripts of the discussions were leaked online.

The writer China Mieville, a longstanding member of the SWP, told me that, like many members, he is "aghast":

"The way such allegations were dealt with - complete with questions about accusers' past relationships and drinking habits that we would instantly, rightly denounce as sexist in any other context - was appalling. It's a terrible problem of democracy, accountability and internal culture that such a situation can occur, as is the fact that those arguing against the official line in a fashion deemed unacceptable to those in charge could be expelled for 'secret factionalism."

Mieville explained that in his party, as in so many other organisations, the power hierarchies which have facilitated problems such as this have been controversial for a long time.

"Many of us have for years been openly fighting for a change in the culture and structures of the organisation to address exactly this kind of democratic deficit, the disproportionate power of the Central Committee and their loyalists, their heavy-handed policing of so-called 'dissent', and their refusal to admit mistakes ," he told me. "Like the current situation, a disaster catastrophically mishandled by the leadership. All of us in the party should have the humility to admit such issues. It's up to members of the SWP to fight for the best of our tradition, not put up with the worst, and to make our organisation what it could be, and unfortunately is not yet."


The British Socialist Worker's Party is hardly atypical among political parties, among left-wing groups, among organisations of committed people or, indeed, among groups of friends and colleagues in having structures in place that might allow sexual abuse and misogyny by men in positions of power to continue unchecked. One could point, in the past 12 months alone, to the BBC's handling of the Jimmy Savile case, or to those Wikileaks supporters who believe that Julian Assange should not be compelled to answer allegations of rape and sexual assault in Sweden.

I could point, personally, to at least two instances involving respected men that have sundered painfully and forever friendship groups which lacked the courage to acknowledge the incidents. The only difference is that the SWP actually talk openly about the unspoken rules by which this sort of intimidation usually goes on. Other groups are not so brazen as to say that their moral struggles are simply more important than piffling issues of feminism, even if that's what they really mean, nor to claim that as right-thinking people they and their leaders are above the law. The SWP's leadership seem to have written it into their rules.

To say that the left has a problem with handling sexual violence is not to imply that everyone else doesn't. There is, however, a stubborn refusal to accept and deal with rape culture that is unique to the left and to progressives more broadly. It is precisely to do with the idea that, by virtue of being progressive, by virtue of fighting for equality and social justice, by virtue of, well, virtue, we are somehow above being held personally accountable when it comes to issues of race, gender and sexual violence.

That unwillingness to analyse our own behaviour can quickly become dogma. The image is one of petty, nitpicking women attempting to derail the good work of decent men on the left by insisting in their whiny little women's way that progressive spaces should also be spaces where we don't expect to get raped and assaulted and slut-shamed and victimised for speaking out, and the emotions are rage and resentment: why should our pure and perfect struggle for class war, for transparency, for freedom from censorship be polluted by - it's pronounced with a curl of the upper lip over the teeth, as if the very word is distasteful - 'identity politics'? Why should we be held more accountable than common-or-garden bigots? Why should we be held to higher standards?

Because if we're not, then we have no business calling ourselves progressive. Because if we don't acknowledge issues of assault, abuse and gender hierarchy within our own institutions we have no business speaking of justice, much less fighting for it.

"The issues of democracy and sexism are not separate, but inextricably linked," writes Walker. "Lack of the first creates space for the second to grow, and makes it all the more difficult to root it out when it does." He's talking about the SWP, but he could be talking about any part of the left right now, in its struggle to divest itself of generations of misogynist baggage.

Equality isn't an optional add-on, a side-issue to be dealt with after the revolution's over. There can be no true democracy, no worthwhile class struggle, without women's rights. The sooner the left accepts that and starts working the enormous stick of priggishness and prejudice out of its collective backside, the sooner we can get on with the job at hand.



Looks like the CIA finally got to the SWP and they're gonna split into a million factions. If the Czar's secret police existed today Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky would all have dozens of rape allegations against them.

#165

babyhueypnewton posted:

Tom Walker - a party member who walked out this week in disgust - explained that feminism "is used effectively as a swear word by the leadership’s supporters.... it is deployed against anyone who seems ‘too concerned’ about issues of gender."



i don't know nothin bout birthin no socialisms, but i noticed this in the SWP transcript. is this opinion of feminism as evil and incompatible with Real Socialism common, and if so, why aren't people punched in the face when they do it

#166
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#167
i'm a useless pathetic misogynist goon and i subscribe to a swp-linked newspaper
#168
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#169

discipline posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Looks like the CIA finally got to the SWP and they're gonna split into a million factions. If the Czar's secret police existed today Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky would all have dozens of rape allegations against them.

gosh I bet it has nothing to do with the fact that the SWP is both useless, pathetic and full of misogynist goons



this is true. however the negative responses have been purely liberal, ironically showing that the SWP is dead but not for the reasons you'd think.

basically critics of the party's policy have posted things like this:

The disputes committee hearing - and by extension the entire mess that followed - should simply never have happened. To be honest, it is nothing short of incredible that it was allowed to go ahead. What right does the party have to organise its very own ‘kangaroo court’ investigation and judgment over such serious allegations against a leading member? None whatsoever.

Of course, I am dead set against the capitalist police and courts, and the way they treat people. That doesn’t mean we can go off and set up our own.



that's exactly what it means. do the naxalite maoists go the police when they have a theft or murder? do communist parties go to the police who exist solely to destroy them? do we condemn bourgeois legality and the bourgeois disciplinary state apparatus but use it when the issue is "serious enough"?

the SWP probably did a terrible job of deciding the case and im sure the party sucks, but clearly people do not realize what it means to be part of a party who's sole purpose is the violent overthrow of the state and to devote one's life to revolution and therefore become an enemy of all the powers of world capital. sad to see something like this destroy a party that I don't care about but sets a bad precedent.

#170

babyhueypnewton posted:

discipline posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Looks like the CIA finally got to the SWP and they're gonna split into a million factions. If the Czar's secret police existed today Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky would all have dozens of rape allegations against them.

gosh I bet it has nothing to do with the fact that the SWP is both useless, pathetic and full of misogynist goons

this is true. however the negative responses have been purely liberal, ironically showing that the SWP is dead but not for the reasons you'd think.

basically critics of the party's policy have posted things like this:

The disputes committee hearing - and by extension the entire mess that followed - should simply never have happened. To be honest, it is nothing short of incredible that it was allowed to go ahead. What right does the party have to organise its very own ‘kangaroo court’ investigation and judgment over such serious allegations against a leading member? None whatsoever.

Of course, I am dead set against the capitalist police and courts, and the way they treat people. That doesn’t mean we can go off and set up our own.



that's exactly what it means. do the naxalite maoists go the police when they have a theft or murder? do communist parties go to the police who exist solely to destroy them? do we condemn bourgeois legality and the bourgeois disciplinary state apparatus but use it when the issue is "serious enough"?

the SWP probably did a terrible job of deciding the case and im sure the party sucks, but clearly people do not realize what it means to be part of a party who's sole purpose is the violent overthrow of the state and to devote one's life to revolution and therefore become an enemy of all the powers of world capital. sad to see something like this destroy a party that I don't care about but sets a bad precedent.

#171
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the shambling Trotskyist paper-sellers who investigate crime and the wild-eyed Maoist retail workers who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.
#172
bu the way this was a huge problem in occupy, whether to rely on the police or create alternative structures of legality and coercion. occupy utterly failed to answer or even fully address it, relying on platitudes and utopianism. it is a serious question though for any movement that utterly opposes the state and the police/legal system, especially since having to ultimately rely on the coercive power of the state (through its monopoly on violence) is losing the revolution before it even begins.
#173
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#174

babyhueypnewton posted:

discipline posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Looks like the CIA finally got to the SWP and they're gonna split into a million factions. If the Czar's secret police existed today Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky would all have dozens of rape allegations against them.

gosh I bet it has nothing to do with the fact that the SWP is both useless, pathetic and full of misogynist goons

this is true. however the negative responses have been purely liberal, ironically showing that the SWP is dead but not for the reasons you'd think.

basically critics of the party's policy have posted things like this:

The disputes committee hearing - and by extension the entire mess that followed - should simply never have happened. To be honest, it is nothing short of incredible that it was allowed to go ahead. What right does the party have to organise its very own ‘kangaroo court’ investigation and judgment over such serious allegations against a leading member? None whatsoever.

Of course, I am dead set against the capitalist police and courts, and the way they treat people. That doesn’t mean we can go off and set up our own.



that's exactly what it means. do the naxalite maoists go the police when they have a theft or murder? do communist parties go to the police who exist solely to destroy them? do we condemn bourgeois legality and the bourgeois disciplinary state apparatus but use it when the issue is "serious enough"?

the SWP probably did a terrible job of deciding the case and im sure the party sucks, but clearly people do not realize what it means to be part of a party who's sole purpose is the violent overthrow of the state and to devote one's life to revolution and therefore become an enemy of all the powers of world capital. sad to see something like this destroy a party that I don't care about but sets a bad precedent.

i agree with the general idea of what you're saying but dont be patronizing. a lot of people DO realize what it means to be part of a revolutionary party but one of their central values is an end to sexual violence. if the SWP can't even do that as well as the fucking UK criminal justice system then what's the point?

#175

swampman posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

discipline posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Looks like the CIA finally got to the SWP and they're gonna split into a million factions. If the Czar's secret police existed today Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky would all have dozens of rape allegations against them.

gosh I bet it has nothing to do with the fact that the SWP is both useless, pathetic and full of misogynist goons

this is true. however the negative responses have been purely liberal, ironically showing that the SWP is dead but not for the reasons you'd think.

basically critics of the party's policy have posted things like this:

The disputes committee hearing - and by extension the entire mess that followed - should simply never have happened. To be honest, it is nothing short of incredible that it was allowed to go ahead. What right does the party have to organise its very own ‘kangaroo court’ investigation and judgment over such serious allegations against a leading member? None whatsoever.

Of course, I am dead set against the capitalist police and courts, and the way they treat people. That doesn’t mean we can go off and set up our own.



that's exactly what it means. do the naxalite maoists go the police when they have a theft or murder? do communist parties go to the police who exist solely to destroy them? do we condemn bourgeois legality and the bourgeois disciplinary state apparatus but use it when the issue is "serious enough"?

the SWP probably did a terrible job of deciding the case and im sure the party sucks, but clearly people do not realize what it means to be part of a party who's sole purpose is the violent overthrow of the state and to devote one's life to revolution and therefore become an enemy of all the powers of world capital. sad to see something like this destroy a party that I don't care about but sets a bad precedent.

i agree with the general idea of what you're saying but dont be patronizing. a lot of people DO realize what it means to be part of a revolutionary party but one of their central values is an end to sexual violence. if the SWP can't even do that as well as the fucking UK criminal justice system then what's the point?



yeah i have no real opinion on the actual sexual assault, whether it happened or not. obviously a terrible thing, though we have to be careful about accusations, since we are enemies of the state and this wouldn't be the first time such an accusation destroyed real revolutionary potential.

i guess more disturbing is the responses and the general cry for "party democracy" which seems to be a cover for a more anarchist type of politics, which are utterly useless. as Mao said:

“At no time and in no circumstances should a Communist place his personal interests first; he should subordinate them to the interests of the nation and of the masses. Hence, selfishness, slacking, corruption, seeking the limelight, and so on, are most contemptible, while selflessness, working with all one’s energy, whole‑hearted devotion to public duty, and quiet hard work will command respect.”

Democracy is purely a means to an end, namely the exchange of ideas among all comrades. It doesn't mean refusing to follow the party line, it doesn't mean making whiny blog posts and airing shit in the open, and it definitely doesn't mean abandoning the leninist model for a party which is the only model that has ever worked (regardless of what you think of the SWP and other trot parties interpretations). the fetishization of "democracy" seems to be nothing more than a regurgitation of the bourgeois concept of "democracy" no matter how many disclaimers you put in front of it.

that the idea of being a party, truly independent of state power and responsible for all the functions of life among the masses, is unimaginable to us in the west while it is reality in many parts of the third world is part of the problem. richard seymore has disappointed me once again.

#176

that the idea of being a party, truly independent of state power and responsible for all the functions of life among the masses, is unimaginable to us in the west while it is reality in many parts of the third world



I gather you mean naxalites and such, who else follows this model?

#177

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

that the idea of being a party, truly independent of state power and responsible for all the functions of life among the masses, is unimaginable to us in the west while it is reality in many parts of the third world

I gather you mean naxalites and such, who else follows this model?



yes but also Mindanao in the Philippines, large areas of Kurdistan, areas of Colombia, and various other smallish places. it's not really important though, because even in revolutionary buildups like in Venezuela or defense of the revolution, like in Cuba or Nepal, arming the people, disarming and dis-empowering the army and police, and leaving coercive force in the hands of the masses rather than the law or the "sovereign" necessarily implies trusting the people and distrusting the police. worrying about crime, sexual assault, murder, and terror are a concern, this necessarily implies a return to discipline and fascism.

what is disturbing here most of all is the return to the gentle caress of the state, the cry for help for the comfort of the all seeing panoptic law. assuming the sexual assault really happened, what would involving the police even do? especially with regards to the future of the party as an effective organization.

#178
You know, I've been thinking about what you said BHPN, and I read this long thread on facebook basically arguing about your concern, and I wrote a response:

I think this is a good space to fine-tune my own thinking. Here's Marx, quoted by Ernest Mandel in his Late Capitalism:

'Capital's ceaseless striving towards the general form of wealth drives labour beyond the limits of its natural paltriness, and thus creates the material elements for the development of the rich individuality which is as all-sided in its production as in its consumption, and whose labour also therefore appears no longer as labour, but as the full development of activity itself, in which natural necessity in its direct form has disappeared; because a historically created need has taken the place of the natural one.'



Mandel says:

Marx fully appreciated and stressed the civilizing function of capital, which he saw as the necessary preparation of the material basis for a 'rich individuality'.

...

For socialists, rejection of capitalist 'consumer society' can therefore never imply rejection of the extension and differentiation of needs as a whole, or any return to the primitive natural state of these needs; their aim is necessarily the development of a 'rich individuality' for the whole of mankind. In this rational Marxist sense, rejection of capitalist 'consumer society' can only mean: rejection of all those forms of consumption and of production which continue to restrict man's development, making it narrow and one-sided. This rational rejection seeks to reverse the relationship between the production of goods and human labour, which is determined by the commodity form under capitalism, so that henceforth the main goal of economic activity is not the maximum production of things and the maximum private profit for each individual unit of production (factory or company), but the optimum self-activity of the individual person. The production of goods must be subordinated to this goal, which means the elimination of forms of production and labour which damage human health and man's natural environment, even if they are 'profitable' in isolation. At the same time, it must be remembered that man as a material being with material needs cannot achieve the full development of a 'rich individuality' through asceticism, self-castigation and artificial self-limitation, but only through the rational development of his consumption, consciously controlled and consciously (i.e., democratically) subordinated to his collective interests.



So perhaps it is important to understand our relation to the bourgeois state justice. At which point can a revolutionary party step in to affect 'the material basis for a 'rich individuality'? At what point is it possible to not simply negate but SUPERSEDE the bourgeois justice system (negate the negation)? The problem with the bourgeois state justice is not that it doesn't administer justice or that it is corrupt (even if it wasn't corrupt, it'd still be a problem), but that its justice is narrow and one-sided.

I boldly venture, lol, the possibility that we must take a complex view towards the bourgeois state. Who provides water service for the people? Who ensures mass transportation? The working class certainly, but bourgeois state institutions are a concrete fact of life. People survive on state-run services. The welfare system may be tail-ended with imperial arms, but what's the concrete meaning of a first-world communist party rejecting governmental daycare services for single mothers? Principled serving the people is supporting the people's welfare, principled anti-imperialism is refusing to support wild-eyed adventurism and crimes against our brothers and sisters. Only in these senses, to me personally, is the triumph of the people inevitable. This is not romantic, high-octane work. This is not jungle combat and one-woman stands against soldier-thugs. It is the truly glorious, tireless, and unending work of preparing a better world.

These issues, to me, mean future developments. One day maybe you can indeed go in a hail of gunfire. When the bourgeois state collapses / turns indisputably against the people (such as in 1917, such as in the Naxalite corridors), then we may pursue seizing (building) the revolutionary state. That day maybe sooner than we think. But just go and try to set up people's tribunals right now, in the vicelike grip of the bourgeois state, and people will rightly see you as insane zealots. Are we a cult or are we scientific, focused on the concrete?

Specifically what I think your focus is, and what sometimes I think western communists spend an inordinate amount of time doing, it's certainly something I've done, is transposing a revolutionary situation onto western conditions. We are not in a position to act as if we are at the 'weakest link': the contours of a revolutionary state in our area of the world are not forthcoming. We cannot demand a revolutionary party for unrevolutionary circumstances. We work with what we have.

BF got mad because there's alot of posters that 'play-act' the radical yet they're not actually involved in any communist groups or actions. I don't judge those people, I was only briefly involved in labor organizing myself. There are indeed serious personal issues that one must mediate and work through to get seriously involved, and I don't resent anyone for their struggles. But I think we cannot talk about 'seizing'/replacing the state when the state has a monopoly. Action must be principled, but also practical and pragmatic. Not the SWP, nor any first world communist party, ideologically-pure or no, can realistically hold a people's court for violent offenders. The dutiful Cheka arose not fully-formed from within the Communist Party, but was a necessary solution to concrete conditions of sabotage, white terror, and infiltration. Maybe someone can correct me here but the *successful* revolutionary party does not take on the sceptre (symbolic phallus) of law and order unless there's a space for it. After the bourgeois state has shown its malevolent final form, after the revolutionary struggle has shaped the properly-revolutionary organization.

I think that maybe it's time to shift focus on the work at hand, not how we'd like it to be.

#179
Well yeah
#180
Lenin? Law degree. Bourgeois law. Fidel Castro????????? Doctor of Law. September 1950. Bourgeois. Law. Nuff said.
#181

discipline posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Looks like the CIA finally got to the SWP and they're gonna split into a million factions. If the Czar's secret police existed today Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky would all have dozens of rape allegations against them.

gosh I bet it has nothing to do with the fact that the SWP is both useless, pathetic and full of misogynist goons



it seems like misogyny (of the liberal variant) is really endemic in all of the major western socialist organizations.

#182
which is ironic considering they've seemed to dispense with class consciousness and empowering the proletariat in favor of effete social justice?? whacky world
#183
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#184
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#185

discipline posted:

Crow posted:

Lenin? Law degree. Bourgeois law. Fidel Castro????????? Doctor of Law. September 1950. Bourgeois. Law. Nuff said.

maybe you should be a laweyer



i often consider this myself but the last time i gave it serious thought tinkzorg's head materialized and howled in anguish as though he was screaming from the depths of hell itself so then i thought maybe no

#186
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#187
going six figures into debt with little hope of having a job at the end of law school? sounds like a plan to me
#188

discipline posted:

where are u from drwhat. are u a swede. my best friend from childhood lives in sweden now, the sex slave of a wealthy nordic oil engineer.



canada. no state-assigned sex slaves for me

#189
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#190

tpaine posted:

discipline posted:

where are u from drwhat. are u a swede. my best friend from childhood lives in sweden now, the sex slave of a wealthy nordic oil engineer.


sweden is the sex slave of a wealthy nordic...what now??



yeah, if anything sweden's the Big Daddy in any perverted Scando-liason

#191
scandinavia is one of those dicks taht get posted on bme dot com where someone's used a razor blade up to oslo
#192
There's a city called Hammerfest?
#193
yeah they have a metal festival called hammerfestfest
#194
no but seriously folks, it's a great place for a visitor to witness the northern lights and has a proud history, such as being the first city in Europe to be lit with electric lights. While it's northern location may put some people off, the residual furthest reaches of the gulf stream ensure it does not face the same extremes of cold as other settlements on a similar lattitude such as Murmansk or Nome, Alaska.
#195
#196

wasted posted:

going six figures into debt with little hope of having a job at the end of law school? sounds like a plan to me



sounds like an excellent way to permanently commit yourself to overthrowing capitalism

#197
#198