AmericanNazbro posted:

I, on the otherhand, think they should have.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, friend. The power of reasoned debate, and, also, I suppose, physical violence.

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

I think the Bolsheviks should have granted independence to the Central Asian lands when they won power. The fact that they happily consolidate Tsarist gains shows that the USSR was an imperialist venture from the start.

At least the muslims of central asia got their revenge eventually though, bleeding and eventually defeating the communist behemoth in the mountains of Afghanistan

staev used to make this argument unironically in D&D. this is the form trolling takes here, generic liberalism.

babyhueypnewton posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
I think the Bolsheviks should have granted independence to the Central Asian lands when they won power. The fact that they happily consolidate Tsarist gains shows that the USSR was an imperialist venture from the start.

At least the muslims of central asia got their revenge eventually though, bleeding and eventually defeating the communist behemoth in the mountains of Afghanistan


staev used to make this argument unironically in D&D. this is the form trolling takes here, generic liberalism.

I support self-determination, the very same sentiment goes for Afghans who are against American imperial occupation now, this isn’t about liberalism

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

It’s sort of poetic that the USSR was double-teamed to death at two ends: on the south by a group of peasants defending their religion and superstitions and myths and on the west by a group of people demanding, as zizek puts it, ‘bananas and pornography’. The autocratic absolutism of communism could not accommodate either of these let alone both of them and so it died, a testament to the fact that humanity is wondrously complex, messy and unpredictable and will not fit neatly into theoretical little boxes dreamt up by academics and malcontents.

In all seriousness it’s quite inspiring and reassuring that this is the case.

Agreed, communism is just incompatible with human nature. That is why, while not perfect, Capitalism is the only available option. As Billy Corgan once said, Capitalism is the worst system -- except for all the other ones.

You pose great questions as always IWC, really hard hitting, and I doubt any of these so called Marxist "intellectuals" have the answers.

babyhueypnewton posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

being untainted by the label of liberalism means unquestionably "upholding" everything that the USSR did before Stalin died.

or, alternatively, the history of the USSR and culturally islamic states is complex and quite interesting and not trolling garbage from people who know shit about it. we're lucky enough to be now getting the complete translated works of Enver Hoxha if you're interested in the Marxist-Leninist lived experience with Islam, or alternatively you can whine about 'stalinism'.

http://ciml.250x.com/archive/hoxha/english/enver_hoxha_laying_the_foundations_1984.html

thank u. (serious)

HenryKrinkle posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

HenryKrinkle posted:

being untainted by the label of liberalism means unquestionably "upholding" everything that the USSR did before Stalin died.

or, alternatively, the history of the USSR and culturally islamic states is complex and quite interesting and not trolling garbage from people who know shit about it. we're lucky enough to be now getting the complete translated works of Enver Hoxha if you're interested in the Marxist-Leninist lived experience with Islam, or alternatively you can whine about 'stalinism'.

http://ciml.250x.com/archive/hoxha/english/enver_hoxha_laying_the_foundations_1984.html

thank u. (serious)

i wish i could post something better but like I said only a fraction of his writings, speeches, and works has been translated or even published. Ask that guy Ismail on revleft, that dude knows more about Hoxha than anybody.

most of gramsci's writing is untranslated as well, I think Columbia university is just now starting to translate all the prison notebooks. let's not forget that the grundrisse wasn't even published until 1939 and wasn't available in english until 1973! it takes a lot of courage to say that there's still a lot we don't even know about the experience of 20th century socialism, but I guess that doesn't sell books where one declares socialism to have failed.

AmericanNazbro posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

It’s sort of poetic that the USSR was double-teamed to death at two ends: on the south by a group of peasants defending their religion and superstitions and myths and on the west by a group of people demanding, as zizek puts it, ‘bananas and pornography’. The autocratic absolutism of communism could not accommodate either of these let alone both of them and so it died, a testament to the fact that humanity is wondrously complex, messy and unpredictable and will not fit neatly into theoretical little boxes dreamt up by academics and malcontents.

In all seriousness it’s quite inspiring and reassuring that this is the case.



Agreed, communism is just incompatible with human nature. That is why, while not perfect, Capitalism is the only available option. As Billy Corgan once said, Capitalism is the worst system -- except for all the other ones.

You pose great questions as always IWC, really hard hitting, and I doubt any of these so called Marxist "intellectuals" have the answers.

'human nature' is just as ideological as trying to impose a Marxist state on Pashtun tribesmen who clear do not want it.

But anyway i think intellectuals of all stripes do have 'the answers', they just don't understand the questions.

getfiscal posted:

enver hoxha essentially banned islam and taught atheism and i think most contemporary hoxhaists think that he was wrong to do so. one hoxhaist i know told me it was virtually the only major thing wrong he ever did.

when i was 18 or so, i knew a little bit about everything. wikipedia and general existence is enough to casually get by in pretty much every subject, especially if you have a talent for bullshit. eventually I learned that I would have to pick something and really study it and my casual knowledge of physics and biology, linguistics and film theory, electronics and comparative religion, etc would all have to remain casual. thats what's called growing up. you're older than I am, but clearly you never grew up and realized there are a lot of things which you simply have no idea about. feel free to correct me if you've seriously studied hoxha's writings and albanian history.

babyhueypnewton posted:

getfiscal posted:

enver hoxha essentially banned islam and taught atheism and i think most contemporary hoxhaists think that he was wrong to do so. one hoxhaist i know told me it was virtually the only major thing wrong he ever did.



when i was 18 or so, i knew a little bit about everything. wikipedia and general existence is enough to casually get by in pretty much every subject, especially if you have a talent for bullshit. eventually I learned that I would have to pick something and really study it and my casual knowledge of physics and biology, linguistics and film theory, electronics and comparative religion, etc would all have to remain casual. thats what's called growing up. you're older than I am, but clearly you never grew up and realized there are a lot of things which you simply have no idea about. feel free to correct me if you've seriously studied hoxha's writings and albanian history.

nerd

I heard what you were saying! You know nothing of my work! You mean my whole fallacy is wrong. How you got to teach a course in anything is totally amazing!

HenryKrinkle posted:

if only there were some sort of website dedicated to translating, transcribing and compiling texts by well-known marxists, an internet archive if u will.

marxists.org is awesome but translating is extremely difficult and requires loads of time and money, of which there is little to spare in bourgeois academia. did you know the first translation of Capital was in russian? did you know mao zedong used to work in the peking university library as a clerk under Li Dazhao, and one of the most important tasks of the communist party as guerillas was translating the writings of Marx and Lenin? I've heard it agrued that the different editions of Capital have been the cause of different communist ideologies and real historical changes.

here's a cool dude: http://news.cultural-china.com/20110705093524.html

babyhueypnewton posted:

also the rest of that post is ridiculous, you and IWC are extremely unpleasant to talk to, and your bullshit about being earnest would be a lot more believable if it didn't always come in a troll thread designed to rile people up.

for what's it's worth i genuinely believe that the USSR collapsed

babyhueypnewton posted:

getfiscal posted:

enver hoxha essentially banned islam and taught atheism and i think most contemporary hoxhaists think that he was wrong to do so. one hoxhaist i know told me it was virtually the only major thing wrong he ever did.

when i was 18 or so, i knew a little bit about everything. wikipedia and general existence is enough to casually get by in pretty much every subject, especially if you have a talent for bullshit. eventually I learned that I would have to pick something and really study it and my casual knowledge of physics and biology, linguistics and film theory, electronics and comparative religion, etc would all have to remain casual. thats what's called growing up. you're older than I am, but clearly you never grew up and realized there are a lot of things which you simply have no idea about. feel free to correct me if you've seriously studied hoxha's writings and albanian history.

have you? christ man at least maintain some simplicity when you dont know something instead of these intellectual parlor tricks