#41
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Ironicwarcriminal posted:

prikryl posted:

or perhaps immigration is a red herring and capital is the real issue

Totally! Like how ‘big polluting industries’ are a red herring for the real issue of capital, so we might as well burn down all the redwood and eucalypt forests and leave our cars running the whole time!



eucalyptus is shit the bay area sends ya'll Down Undah a big "Fuck you" including me because im allergic to that shit

#42
mt.real
Post rating: +

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

And by the way yes I know that Canadian multiculturalism works better than most places, I’ve seen degrassi, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s a fundamental plank of the neoliberal project, and socialists who support high immigration are betraying workers and further entrenching said neoliberal project.


yeah the liberal perspective on this, which is actually true if you only are thinking about and looking at the middle/uppermiddle class from inside already-established alienated shit, is that you must market yourself, you must transform yourself into a human commodity and get the best deal for yourself no matter where it is

so for me, for example, mr white skinned white collared guy, mobility is great, because i have already sold out and have no home, and telling people we have to shut the borders seems like crazy reactionary racism that would only stop other people from getting these fantastic JObs.

but really how do you argue that, in really existing capitalism, you should stop people from escaping one shittier repression into another much less shitty repression. of course in theoryland mobility is bad because we are developing each community independently and everyone is growing into socialism but we don't live there

#43
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also burn down my balls and leave your car running the whole time
#44
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#45
Nippon
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immigration is cool. i love browns.

Goethestein was probated until (May 20, 2013 17:28:02) for this post!

#46
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prikryl posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
prikryl posted:
or perhaps immigration is a red herring and capital is the real issue

Totally! Like how ‘big polluting industries’ are a red herring for the real issue of capital, so we might as well burn down all the redwood and eucalypt forests and leave our cars running the whole time!


eucalyptus is shit the bay area sends ya'll Down Undah a big "Fuck you" including me because im allergic to that shit



owned

#47
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socialism in one country

Lysenko was probated until (Aug. 27, 2013 13:06:32) for this post!

#48
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#49
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roseweird posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
exactly, it's about acquiring social capital to elevate yourself above the working class and create levels of social and cultural distinction that reinforce your economic distinction and make it seem more justified.


this element is very important but i don't want to exaggerate, there is also the reality that almost all working class people i know are immigrants and people of color, and their problems are just much more present for me than the problems of white working class people. while it is clear to me that these immigration patterns are unsustainable and would not occur under global socialism, it is equally clear to me that the immigration measures favored by many white american working poor are damaging and unhelpful as well. people are displaced by neoliberal imperialism generally, we have to take them in out of compassion for what we have done, right? having displaced them, can we take them in and then subject them to the anxiety of uncertain immigration status and threats of deportation? i mean i know personally a lot of people who came here as children and grew up culturally american but uncertain of their citizenship status, and it causes a lot of problems... we can blame their parents for doing this, fine, but we have to help them, we can't just submit to xenophobic policies that try to punish them for having broken immigration law or something



- a member of the bourgeois

we know all this, because the bourgeois have the luxury of wringing their hands over these things

#50
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Since immigration and children being born both weaken workers' bargaining power, the only way you can oppose immigration and not look like a big racist is to also support population control -- as I do.
#51
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#52
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Stalin put whole nationalities in cattle cars and shipped them a quarter way around the world, that seems like a proper socialist migration program, not some neoliberalism-in-socialisms clothing emotion-derived policy.
#53
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#54
Post rating: +
It is also in such a worker's material self interest for his country to imperialize
#55
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roseweird posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
Stalin put whole nationalities in cattle cars and shipped them a quarter way around the world, that seems like a proper socialist migration program, not some neoliberalism-in-socialisms clothing emotion-derived policy.


yeah iwc being shipped around the world in cattle cars sounds downright utopian



Yeah it does actually! Most people here agree that the USSR under Stalin or China under Mao were the highest achievements of socialism and they were both built on shipping people unwillingly to distant locations by train.

#56
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#57
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
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Territory is defined only by what you can successfully defend
#58
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: +
every time an undocumented Mexican worker steps foot in America, he is not crossing a border--he is redrawing it
#59
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#60
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roseweird posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
Yeah it does actually! Most people here agree that the USSR under Stalin or China under Mao were the highest achievements of socialism and they were both built on shipping people unwillingly to distant locations by train.



that is nice but does not persuade me of the justifiability of forcefully relocating people



well obviously not, you're a liberal

#61
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#62
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roseweird posted:

i'm not a liberal i just don't like raising my voice and can't imagine all shouting at people and telling them to get on trains, that is messed up



Lol well how to you expect a socialist society to work without yelling at people and making them do thing? That they’ll get on trains out of the sheer goodness of their hearts? Their love for socialist ideology?

#63
Post rating: +
what if your multi-ethnic union was about to be invaded by fascists in a year or so and these people had been an active thorn in your multi-ethnic union's side for decades and it was plausible that they would revolt and join the fascist invaders

also this has nothing to do with immigration lol
#64
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prikryl posted:

what if your multi-ethnic union was about to be invaded by fascists in a year or so and these people had been an active thorn in your multi-ethnic union's side for decades and it was plausible that they would revolt and join the fascist invaders

also this has nothing to do with immigration lol



No you’re right, because a nationality might be a fifth column it’s definitely understandable to deport them all: i.e. Mexicans in the united states or Pakistanis in britain

#65
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#66
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roseweird posted:

prikryl posted:
Lol well how to you expect a socialist society to work without yelling at people and making them do thing? That they’ll get on trains out of the sheer goodness of their hearts? Their love for socialist ideology?


maybe not, but i think it is impossible to build a meaningful or good society on forceful relocation. not more impossible than it is to build one on the alienation and dislocation of liberalism, but equally impossible. no one will ever regard as truly home a place to which they were forced to go and work. no one will ever want to build a culture of love and pride for such a place.



agreed, abolish public housing, make people work for it, voluntarily but also for money

liberalism

#67
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#68
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I just want to solve the world's problems with love and not discipline or sacrifice.
#69
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How do I you mediate between the particular and general aspects of society? Love! *puts safety nets around worker's dormitories and preaches the gift of life*
#70
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#71
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#72
Post rating: ~

roseweird posted:

prikryl posted:
Lol well how to you expect a socialist society to work without yelling at people and making them do thing? That they’ll get on trains out of the sheer goodness of their hearts? Their love for socialist ideology?


maybe not, but i think it is impossible to build a meaningful or good society on forceful relocation. not more impossible than it is to build one on the alienation and dislocation of liberalism, but equally impossible. no one will ever regard as truly home a place to which they were forced to go and work. no one will ever want to build a culture of love and pride for such a place.



Name me one great city or structure or institution that was built without forcing people to go somewhere and build it

#73
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#74
Post rating: +

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

prikryl posted:

what if your multi-ethnic union was about to be invaded by fascists in a year or so and these people had been an active thorn in your multi-ethnic union's side for decades and it was plausible that they would revolt and join the fascist invaders

also this has nothing to do with immigration lol

No you’re right, because a nationality might be a fifth column it’s definitely understandable to deport them all: i.e. Mexicans in the united states or Pakistanis in britain



of course, because mexico and pakistan are going to invade and annihilate the united states / UK / white people and turn them all into slaves in the نازی جماعت Espacio Vital de Gran Reich Mexicana-پاكِستان

Edited by prikryl ()

#75
Post rating: ~

roseweird posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
Name me one great city or structure or institution that was built without forcing people to go somewhere and build it


lol i can't, of course. name me one great city or structure or institution that is good and not terrible. great things are not good things.



ok so human greatness is built on pushing people into railcars, i'm glad you admit it. The result of this of course, is that without people being pushed into trains we'll have nothing great at all

#76
Post rating: ~

prikryl posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
prikryl posted:
what if your multi-ethnic union was about to be invaded by fascists in a year or so and these people had been an active thorn in your multi-ethnic union's side for decades and it was plausible that they would revolt and join the fascist invaders

also this has nothing to do with immigration lol
No you’re right, because a nationality might be a fifth column it’s definitely understandable to deport them all: i.e. Mexicans in the united states or Pakistanis in britain


of course, mexico and pakistan are going to invade and annihilate the united states / white people and turn them all into slaves in the Espacio Vital de Gran Reich Mexicana-Pakistan



pakistanis bombed public transport networks, plotted others, and went to fight against their adopted country so um.....

#77
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: ~

roseweird posted:

maybe not, but i think it is impossible to build a meaningful or good society on forceful relocation. not more impossible than it is to build one on the alienation and dislocation of liberalism, but equally impossible. no one will ever regard as truly home a place to which they were forced to go and work. no one will ever want to build a culture of love and pride for such a place.



#78
Post rating: ~
yes, the Government of Pakistan did this
#79
Post rating: ~

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

prikryl posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
prikryl posted:
what if your multi-ethnic union was about to be invaded by fascists in a year or so and these people had been an active thorn in your multi-ethnic union's side for decades and it was plausible that they would revolt and join the fascist invaders

also this has nothing to do with immigration lol
No you’re right, because a nationality might be a fifth column it’s definitely understandable to deport them all: i.e. Mexicans in the united states or Pakistanis in britain


of course, mexico and pakistan are going to invade and annihilate the united states / white people and turn them all into slaves in the Espacio Vital de Gran Reich Mexicana-Pakistan

pakistanis bombed public transport networks, plotted others, and went to fight against their adopted country so um.....


maybe if their leaders weren't assassinating the political opposition...

#80
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