#1
I believe that a central question of socialist politics is whether capitalism is tolerable, and to what extent. For example, one way of framing the American Civil War that is popular is the idea that slavery is non-negotiable. It was the Confederate position that states had to have the right to decide for themselves about the slavery question, while the Union thought that this was a national question (primarily, at first, about new territories and the slave trade). Were democracy the highest value, and slavery negotiable, then presumably a situation could have evolved where the slave states would have had autonomy on this issue or even moved towards independence without fear of Union reprisal.

The argument presented by many abolitionists was that the slavery question was prior to democracy, that freedom of labour was prior to whether or not citizens chose to endorse slavery. John Brown did not try to instigate slave uprisings on the premise that this might lead to democratic political change. On this point, it is important to remember that wage labour was considered a sort of dependence at that time, too, and that the ideal was either land ownership or bourgeois professional life, but wage labour was tolerated in law due to the emerging industrial system.

There is a difficult question that emerges in this sort of situation, though. What if the strong majority of Americans were fully dedicated to an economy that included or was even centered on slavery? Imagine, as well, that this were a perpetual condition for the foreseeable future - simply petitioning against slavery would probably not transform the conditions of slaves. Now, imagine that you believe there is a capacity for the slave minority and its allies to take state power and impose a non-slave society on the American public. I would argue that the prevailing hegemonic ideology today would say that this radical anti-slavery is intolerable.

Now, I do think there is a qualitative difference between a capitalist wage labour market and slavery. Capitalist wage labour tends to be much more flexible, and the limited mobility between jobs allows for workers to play employers off another, even if the opposite is true. In fact, as Joan Robinson argues, there is a sense in which one can be "underexploited" - large numbers of people in the world would probably be better off in a capitalist wage labour factory job than stuck in unemployment or subsistence farming. So perhaps the question is less important, but if wage labour is a "transformation of slavery", as David Graeber argues, then the basic question remains.

Another issue is whether employment by the state within a common economic plan is qualitatively different from wage labour. For the argument to hold this would have to be true. That is, a person would have to be better off in important ways as an employee to a state that they have no ultimate complete control over (in a liberal-democratic sense) than as an individual within a liberal-democratic capitalist system that can possibly change the nature of economic institutions to a limited extent. If there is an ambiguity here, then one would have to argue that the social effects of the transformation of wage labour into state labour would need to be largely positive. But that seems to move the argument to a new plane - one where the substantive effects of the end of "wage slavery" are weighed more than the individual's liberation from such a condition of labour.

In a sense, liberal-democrats might argue that the social contract precedes wage slavery, such that a person who agrees to work for a factory might be still considered a free person to a tolerable extent because they agree to the basic institutions that structure that choice (they've accepted they lost the vote about wage slavery and are tolerating capitalism). This is actually John Rawls' central argument, that liberal-democratic institutions precede the issue of economic inequality, even if he does think that economic inequality is basically unfair except in specific limited conditions. While Rawls was actually critical of inequalities in property ownership in general, he thought that it was more important to support democracy as a basic framework because it flowed from the premise of cooperation between free and equal people.

To restate the problem, it is difficult to delineate where state employment is not simply equal to wage labour, especially in situations where the state utilizes market forces. For example, for most of the existence of the Soviet Union the state acted as a coordinator and purchaser, but people worked for individual firms and organizations. This has led to many critics on the left to call some period of the Soviet experience "state capitalist". In some situations, firms were profit-oriented, and firms were associated with a large coordination apparatus that often seemed parasitic. In this sort of situation, the distinction between working for a capitalist boss and working for a firm's official in a profit-seeking enterprise might not be obvious. Moreover, if you are engaged in commodity production, that is producing for sale on a consumer market, rather than simply for use, you are regulated by the imperatives of commodity production, which involves competition and work discipline.

Another argument for democracy is epistemological. That is, a small elite can't decide for others what amounts to the good society, because this is not objective social knowledge. Liberal-democratic capitalism is often portrayed as the diffusion of social power, where (despite inequalities) a diverse range of individuals make decisions about how to organize their own lives and their social situations. The failure of such systems to live up to this promise is seen as an inadequate implementation of the same ideas - the solution is more property redistribution, more democratic engagement, more individual choice. As such, liberal systems have a certain resiliency, both institutional and also ideological. The liberal-left sees the problems of their society as soluble through fidelity to the ideas that are behind the crisis.

The radical left does not typically deal with this basic question in an open way. Yet the idea that socialism is non-negotiable is deeply held by many on the left, even those that suggest they are deeply committed to democracy. For post-Stalinists and Maoists this is largely obvious, they talk about democracy but uphold various historical socialist countries. For Trotskyists, however, it is often in the fine print. For example, the International Socialist Tendency has produced documents, notably by leading member John Molyneux, that say that non-socialist parties will have to be banned after a socialist revolution. Likewise, the International Marxist Tendency has articles where they suggest that Cuba should legalize pro-socialist parties, which implies, of course, that capitalist parties ought to be banned. In a sense, then, Trotskyists are calling for democracy internal to the socialist movement, and it must be said that they think only a majority of workers can build socialism, but the basic logic of their argument betrays the idea that socialism is non-negotiable. Of course, paradoxically, in practice most Trotskyists tend to defend liberal-democracy as an inferior but important stage in working self-organization, such that they fiercely criticize anti-democratic leaders.

The idea that democracy ought to be internal to the socialist movement is obviously not completely foreign to historical socialist states. There was a great deal of debate internal to the logic of the system. Surprisingly, we don't tend to think of this as political, when obviously it was considered extremely political, sometimes excessively so, within the socialist countries. Arthur Koestler gives the example of submarines in his book "Darkness at Noon": A person might be purged because they write a paper in favour of long-distance submarines, which implies projecting power and Trotskyist world revolution, while another person might be advanced because their paper on short-distance submarines coheres more closely to the need for perimeter defence. While the Trotskyist tends to be unclear about what is "socialist enough" to be tolerated, the historical Stalinist tends to be too precise. Put simply, the bounds of debate are unclear in a system that privileges a particular position as fundamental.

The typical "democratic socialist" also sweeps these sort of questions away by suggesting that we have the best of both worlds: If everyone agreed on socialism, then we wouldn't have to worry about the details of authoritarianism. This seems similar to rejecting the need for military strategy on the premise that one is against war. In fact, the two are closely linked: Often the question about wage labour is modified by much more practical concerns of defence and national liberation. To focus on first world liberal-democracies misses much of the human experience. Countries that "choose" socialism in one way or another are often simply terrorized or subjugated into accepting capitalism. Moreover, the imperatives of economic imperialism drive the system towards such conflicts, by denying resources to countries that refuse to play along, and pillaging many others. The choice to peacefully petition and organize for socialism is essentially refused to the majority of people on the planet, as the state and capital exist in a basic alliance. Even in supposedly liberal systems, such as the US, an incredible amount of violence is used to suppress communities that have a profound interest in rebellion, from targeted destruction of the lives of leftists to the immense destruction of the drug war on non-whites, let alone obvious institutional discrimination against the left.

Malcolm X used to say that racism must be ended using either the ballot or the bullet. That is, either America's white majority would have to concede the necessity of black economic self-determination through legal concessions that guaranteed equality, or the situation would need to be imposed on them through black revolution. This is a related aspect of socialist revolution - the aspect of national liberation. Often nations or peoples are subordinated to another within a state or international framework. While socialism aims for global revolution, the national character of historical revolutions cannot be denied. This is to say that there are more values at stake than either socialism and democracy, narrowly defined.

I do not mean to say that democracy is an unimportant value. What I would suggest, however, is that it needs to be balanced, probably largely by intuition, with a plurality of other values across an entire social field. Most people, it seems, tolerate liberal institutions in countries like Canada, to a great extent. There are important values that are built with such institutions, they are not simply completely harmful ideology. While it is plausible that most lives would be better off in a socialist system, it is not categorically so, and people are risk averse when it comes to systemic change for obvious reasons. What is important, however, is to see this balance of values as possibly including limiting democracy or choice as a value when the benefits of doing so are perceived to be large, such as in situations of national liberation. In fact, an important value may simply to deny others the possibility to do things we think of as wrong. This balance, I would suggest, is an inescapable part of contemporary moral reasoning.

Edited by getfiscal ()

#2
no. now close thread.
#3
[account deactivated]
#4

In the first volume of Capital, Marx uses the rhetorical ploy of staging what he calls the “voice” of the worker in order to bring out the character of his category “labor.” This voice shows how abstracted the category “worker” or “labor” is from the social and the psychic processes that we common-sensically associate with “the everyday.” Firstly, it reduces age, childhood, health, strength and so on to biological or physiological statements, separate from the diverse and historically specific experiences of aging, of being a child, of being healthy, and so on. “Apart from the natural deterioration through age etc.,” Marx’s category “worker” says to the capitalist in a voice that is introspective as well, “I must be able to work tomorrow with the same normal amount of strength, health, and freshness as today.” This abstraction means that “sentiments” are no part of this imaginary dialogue between the abstracted laborer and the capitalist who is himself also a figure of abstraction. The voice of the worker says: “I . . . demand a working day of normal length . . . without any appeal to your heart, for in money matters sentiment is out of place. You may be a model citizen, perhaps a member of the R.S.P.C.A., and you may be in the odour of sanctity as well; but the thing you represent as you come face to face with me has no heart in its breast.”30 In this figure of a rational collective entity, the worker, Marx grounds the question of working-class unity, either potential or realized. The question of working class unity is not a matter of emotional or psychic solidarity of empirical workers, as numerous humanist-Marxist labor historians, from E. P. Thompson on, have often imagined it to be. The “worker” is an abstract and collective subject by its very constitution.31 It is within that collective and abstract subject that, as Gayatri Spivak has reminded us, the dialectic of class-in-itself and class-for-itself plays out.32 The “collective worker,” says Marx, “formed out of the combination of a number of individual specialized workers, is the item of machinery specifically characteristic of the manufacturing period.”33


ABSTRACT LABOR AS CRITIQUE


The universal category “abstract labor” has a twofold function in Marx: it is both a description and a critique of capital. Whereas capital makes abstractions real in everyday life, Marx uses these very same abstractions to give us a sense of the everyday world that capitalist production creates— witness, for example, Marx’s use of such reductively biological categories as “women,” “children,” “adult males,” “childhood,” “family functions,” or the “expenditure of domestic labour.”38 The idea of abstract labor reproduces the central feature of the hermeneutic of capital— how capital reads human activity.

Yet “abstract labor” is also a critique of the same hermeneutic because it—the labor of abstracting—defines for Marx a certain kind of unfreedom. He calls it “despotism.” This despotism is structural to capital; it is not simply historical. Thus Marx writes that “capital is constantly compelled to wrestle with the insubordination of the workers,” and he says that discipline, “ highly detailed specifications, which regulate, with military uniformity, the times, the limits, the pauses of work by the stroke of the clock, . . . developed out of circumstances as natural laws of the modern mode of production. Their formulation, official recognition and proclamation by the state were the result of a long class struggle.”39 Here Marx is not speaking merely of a particular historical stage, the transition from handicrafts to manufactures in England, when “the full development of its own peculiar tendencies comes up against obstacles from many directions . . . the habits and the resistance of the male workers.”40 He is also writing about “resistance to capital” as something internal to capital itself. As Marx writes elsewhere, the self-reproduction of capital “moves in contradictions which are constantly overcome but just as constantly posited.” Just because, he adds, capital gets ideally beyond every limit posed to it by “national barriers and prejudices,” “it does not by any means follow that it has really overcome it.”41

From where does such resistance arise? Many labor historians think of resistance to factory work as the result of either a clash between the requirements of industrial discipline and preindustrial habits of workers in the early phase of industrialization or a heightened level of worker consciousness in a later phase. In other words, they see it as the result of a particular historical stage of capitalist production. Marx, in contrast, locates this resistance in the very logic of capital. That is to say, he locates it in the structural “being” of capital rather than in its historical “becoming.” Central to this argument is what Marx sees as the “despotism of capital,” which has nothing to do with either the historical stage of capitalism or the empirical worker’s consciousness. It would not matter for Marx’s argument whether the capitalist country in question were a developed one or not. Resistance is the Other of the despotism inherent in capital’s logic. It is also a part of Marx’s point about why, if capitalism were ever to realize itself fully, it would embody the conditions for its own dissolution.

Capital’s power is autocratic, writes Marx. Resistance is rooted in a process through which capital appropriates the will of the worker. Marx writes: “In the factory code, the capitalist formulates his autocratic power over his workers like a private legislator, and purely as an emanation of his own will.”42 This will, embodied in capitalist discipline, Marx describes as “purely despotic,” and he uses the analogy of the army to describe the coercion at its heart: “An industrial army of workers under the command of capital requires, like a real army, officers (managers) and N.C.O.s (foremen, overseers), who command during labour process in the name of capital. The work of supervision becomes their exclusive function.”43

Why call capitalist discipline “despotic” if all it does is to act as though labor could be abstracted and homogenized? Marx’s writings on this point underscore the importance of the concept of “abstract labor”—a version of the Enlightenment figure of the abstract human—as an instrument of critique. He thought of abstract labor as a compound category, spectrally objective and yet made up of human physiology and human consciousness, both abstracted from any empirical history. The consciousness in question was pure will. Marx writes: “Factory work exhausts the nervous system to the uttermost; at the same time, it does away with the many-sided play of the muscles, and confiscates every atom of freedom, both in bodily and intellectual activity. Even the lightening of labour becomes a torture.”44

Why would freedom have to do with something as reductively physiological as “the nervous system . . . the many-sided play of muscles”? Because, Marx explains, the labor that capital presupposes “as its contradiction and its contradictory being,” and which in turn “presupposes capital,” is a special kind of labor, “labour not as an object, but as activity, . . . as the living source of value.”45 “As against capital, labour is the merely abstract form, the mere possibility of value-positing activity, which exists only as a capacity, as a resource in the bodiliness of the worker.”46 Science aids in this abstraction of living labor by capital: “In machinery, the appropriation of living labour by capital achieves a direct reality. . . . It is, firstly, the analysis and application of mechanical and chemical laws, arising directly out of science, which enables the machine to perform the same labour as that previously performed by the worker. However, the development of machinery along this path occurs only after . . . all the sciences have been pressed into the service of capital.”47

The critical point is that the labor that is abstracted in the capitalist’s search for a common measure of human activity is living. Marx would ground resistance to capital in this apparently mysterious factor called “life.” The connections between the language of classical political economy and the traditions of European thought one could call “vitalist” are an underexplored area of research, particularly in the case of Marx. Marx’s language and his biological metaphors often reveal a deep influence of nineteenth-century vitalism: “Labour is the yeast thrown into it , which starts it fermenting.” And labor power as “commodity exists in his vitality. . . . In order to maintain this from one day to the next . . . he has to consume a certain quantity of food, to replace his used-up blood etc. . . . Capital has paid him the amount of objectified labour contained in his vital forces.”48 These vital forces are the ground of constant resistance to capital. They are the abstract living labor—a sum of muscles, nerves, and consciousness/will—which, according to Marx, capital posits as its contradictory starting point. In this vitalist understanding, life, in all its biological/conscious capacity for willful activity (the “many-sided play of muscles”), is the excess that capital, for all its disciplinary procedures, always needs but can never quite control or domesticate.

One is reminded here of Hegel’s discussion, in his Logic, of the Aristotelian category “life.” Hegel accepted Aristotle’s argument that “life” was expressive of a totality or unity in a living individual. “The single members of the body,” Hegel writes, “are what they are only by and in relation to their unity. A hand e.g. when hewn off from the body is, as Aristotle has observed, a hand in name only, not in fact.”49 It is only with death that this unity is dismembered and the body falls prey to the objective forces of nature. With death, as Charles Taylor puts it in explaining this section of Hegel’s Logic, “mechanism and chemism” break out of the “subordination” in which they are held “as long as life continues.”50 Life, to use Hegel’s expression, “is a standing fight” against the possibility of the dismemberment with which death threatens the unity of the living body.51 Life, in Marx’s analysis of capital, is similarly a “standing fight” against the process of abstraction that is constitutive of the category “labor.” It is as if the process of abstraction and ongoing appropriation of the worker’s body in the capitalist mode of production perpetually threatens to effect a dismemberment of the unity of the “living body.”

This unity of the body that “life” expresses, however, is something more than the physical unity of the limbs. “Life” implies a consciousness that is purely human in its abstract and innate capacity for willing. This embodied and peculiarly human “will”—reflected in “the many-sided play of muscles”—refuses to bend to the “technical subordination” under which capital constantly seeks to place the worker. Marx writes: “The presupposition of the master-servant relation is the appropriation of an alien will.” This will could not belong to animals, for animals could not be part of the politics of recognition that the Hegelian master-slave relation assumed. A dog might obey a man, but the man would never know for certain if the dog did not simply look on him as another, bigger, and more powerful “dog.” As Marx writes: “the animal may well provide a service but does not thereby make its owner a master.” The dialectic of mutual recognition on which the master-servant relationship turned could only take place between humans: “the master-servant relation likewise belongs in this formula of the appropriation of the instruments of production. . . . [I]t is reproduced—in mediated form—in capital, and thus . . . forms a ferment of its dissolution and is an emblem of its limitation.”52

Marx’s critique of capital begins at the same point where capital begins its own life process: the abstraction of labor. Yet this labor, although abstract, is always living labor to begin with. The “living” quality of the labor ensures that the capitalist has not bought a fixed quantum of labor but rather a variable “capacity for labor,” and being “living” is what makes this labor a source of resistance to capitalist abstraction. The tendency on the part of capital would therefore be to replace, as much as possible, living labor with objectified, dead labor. Capital is thus faced with its own contradiction: it needs abstract but living labor as the starting point in its cycle of self-reproduction, but it also wants to reduce to a minimum the quantum of living labor it needs. Capital will therefore tend to develop technology in order to reduce this need to a minimum. This is exactly what will create the conditions necessary for the emancipation of labor and for the eventual abolition of the category “labor” altogether. But that would also be the condition for the dissolution of capital: “apital . . . —quite unintentionally—reduces human labour, expenditure of energy, to a minimum. This will redound to the benefit of emancipated labour, and is the condition of its emancipation.”53

The subsequent part of Marx’s argument runs as follows. It is capital’s tendency to replace living labor by science and technology—that is, by man’s “understanding of nature and his mastery over it by virtue of his presence as a social body”—that will give rise to the development of the “social individual” whose greatest need will be that of the “free development of individualities.” For the “reduction of the necessary labour of society to a minimum” would correspond “to the artistic, scientific etc. development of the individuals in the time set free, and with the means created, for all of them.” Capital would then reveal itself as the “moving contradiction” it is: it both presses “to reduce labour time to a minimum” and at the same time posits labor time “as the sole measure and source of wealth.” It would therefore work “towards its own dissolution as the form dominating production.”54

Thus would Marx complete the loop of his critique of capital, which looks to a future beyond capital by attending closely to the contradictions in capital’s own logic. He uses the vision of the abstract human embedded in the capitalist practice of “abstract labor” to generate a radical critique of capital itself. He recognizes that bourgeois societies in which the idea of “human equality” had acquired the “fixity of popular prejudice” allowed him to use the same idea to critique them. But historical difference would remain sublated and suspended in this particular form of the critique.



from Chapter 2, Provincializing Europe by Dipesh Chakrabarty

Edited by babyfinland ()

#5
that's a good discussion of marx. i think that socialism has many paradoxical elements that are sort of touched on it that discussion. for example, socialism is the intense rationalization of production, making labour more and more social labour and according to a plan. but it is also attempting to build a society where precisely the opposite is possible: where people do what they want. in other words, it's almost a winding down of capitalism, using the logic of wage labour to abolish the wage relation. lenin said that socialism was nothing other than state monopoly capitalism made to benefit the whole of the people (as it emerged from capitalism)... which implies to me that the socialist system is about extending what is viable about capitalism and using it against capitalism. in other words, it reorders life, but it first extends life. so it is very conservative in many ways, accepting modes of life for a long time, while still experimenting at the margins with communalism and new forms of self-organization.
#6
that's sort of how i view it, essentially a question of administration

so if we can unite "capitalism" and "socialism" into modern industrial economy then maybe that casts your question in a different light. it is then not "socialism" that is up for debate but rather the justification of a given configuration or reconfiguration and its consequences
#7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnoI7Be4VZk
#8


An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.

Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
#9

aerdil posted:
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama's socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama's plan". All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A.... (substituting grades for dollars - something closer to home and more readily understood by all).

After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little..

The second test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F. As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else. To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed. It could not be any simpler than that.

Remember, there IS a test coming up. The 2012 elections.

These are possibly the 5 best sentences you'll ever read and all applicable to this experiment:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.



6. literally anybody can become an economics professor in america

#10
[account deactivated]
#11
*sighs* for the last time, just because something didnt happen, doesnt mean its not true. dont you understand anything about postmodernity??
#12
[account deactivated]
#13
i have to say this is one of the most vile and upsetting threads i've seen on this forum to date. getfiscal is showing us yet again that he is truly a rawlsian at heart despite his forays into post-marxist thought and theory, which it seems to me he only reads to dismiss. but let me uncharacteristically forgo the ad hominem and address the argument.

First, it is quite misplaced to focus on a discourse concerning "values" when discussing Marxism and Socialism. It reveals, I think, an engagement in the language of liberalism rather than socialism, what would be a thoroughly flawed approach in general, but especially so when ostensibly analyzing socialism.

Benjamin Noys has a great excerpt discussing this phenomenon in one of his recent essays:

Nietzsche famously remarked that ‘I am afraid we are not rid of God because we still have faith in grammar.’ What I am concerned with is that although we are witnessing a global financial crisis, and therefore the crisis of neo-liberalism, that the ‘grammar’ of neo-liberalism still dominates our thinking, and most perniciously, as I presume, the thinking of ‘us’ as those resistant to neo-liberalism as a specific form of governmental rationality, and more generally to capitalism as a social form. I am not excluding myself from this ‘set’, I claim no immunity or position of moral superiority; this, I think, is a result of one of the truths of Marxism, which is not, as Fredric Jameson constantly points out, a moral critique, but rather a critique that begins from the actual and real contradictions, antagonisms, and tensions of the existing social forms, which is to say capitalist forms. In fact, as Jameson notes a moral critique all too often stands in for Marxist critique, in the reactionary form diagnosed by Nietzsche as a mechanism of value-positing, hierarchisation, and generator of a (bad) ressentiment.



You seem to be using not only the grammar of liberal capitalism throughout your post, but bizarrely even the grammar of whatever predominant hegemony existed during the period of the historical example you use. You first mention the struggle of to eliminate slavery during the civil war:

Were democracy the highest value, and slavery negotiable, then presumably a situation could have evolved where the slave states would have had autonomy on this issue or even moved towards independence without fear of Union reprisal.



The obvious rebuttal that is weirdly missing from your essay is if "democracy were the highest value,” then the vast population of slaves would have a voice in the process rather than only white power structure. But using the limited ideological grammar of the era rather than taking this more universal view of democracy is the norm throughout your essay.

And it is this limited hegemonic view of democracy that you attack.

Now, imagine that you believe there is a capacity for the slave minority and its allies to take state power and impose a non-slave society on the American public. I would argue that the prevailing hegemonic ideology today would say that this radical anti-slavery is intolerable.



I don’t disagree with that assessment; it is one of the many flaws with the prevailing hegemonic ideology of today. But to conflate that ideology with “democracy” in the socialist sense of the word is dishonest and ridiculous. And it this conflation that is the crux of your argument. Perhaps the issue arises because you implicitly mean “bourgeois and white supremacist democracy” when you erroneously say “democracy.”

Then you dive off into a long analysis of wage slavery from a wholly liberal-democratic ideological perspective, in an almost Stephen Pinkerish extreme, and come to the surprising conclusion that such a perspective finds it much more appealing than chattel slavery or state employment. Amazing. Unfortunately it completely ignores class relations, socialist theory on what proletarian democracy would actually look like, and the increased control that a worker would theoretically have in his own government and economic life. You dismiss these by explicitly focusing on the “liberal-democratic sense,” but to do so is overly dishonest when you are discussing state government not under liberal capitalism but under a socialist system.

To restate the problem, it is difficult to delineate where state employment is not simply equal to wage labour, especially in situations where the state utilizes market forces.



Do you find it difficult within a liberal-capitalist context, or within the socialist context? In the latter, although specific theories and implementations obviously differ, the worker has democratic control over his workplace and benefits in an egalitarian distribution of social resources. In wage labour, the worker gets paid whatever wage the capitalist agrees upon and all surplus value is kept by a few.

Another argument for democracy is epistemological. That is, a small elite can't decide for others what amounts to the good society, because this is not objective social knowledge.



But is rule by a small elite really what is proposed in socialist theory? By setting up liberal democracy as opposed to that state of affairs, you seem to be implicitly making that claim. You mention that when those liberal systems fail to live up to their promises, they merely double down and perpetuate the same failings. But you refer to this as a positive resiliency rather than a systemic flaw. And, in fact, I would accuse liberal capitalist “democracy” in actually resulting in that state of affairs (how often does the drive for technocracy or corrupt lobbying trump democracy?).

On the other hand, even in Leninist vanguard theory, which liberals often accuse of simply being a Straussian rule by a few elite, the notions of democracy and dictatorship are far more complex. Lenin writes:

From the vulgar bourgeois standpoint the terms dictatorship and democracy are mutually exclusive. Failing to understand the theory of class struggle, and accustomed to seeing in the political arena the petty squabbling of the various bourgeois circles and coteries, the bourgeois conceives dictatorship to mean the annulment of all the liberties and guarantees of democracy, tyranny of every kind, and every sort of abuse of power in the personal interests of a dictator.



Instead of having a flawed understanding of democracy, the true revolutionary recognizes the steps necessarily to create an actual democracy – steps anathema to liberal theory:

In Marx’s opinion, the National Assembly should have “eliminated from the regime actually existing in Germany everything that contradicted the principle of the sovereignty of the people,” then it should have “consolidated the revolutionary ground on which it stands in order to make the sovereignty of the people, won by the revolution, secure against all attacks.”

Thus, the tasks which Marx set before a revolutionary government or dictatorship in 1848 amounted in substance primarily to a democratic revolution: defence against counterrevolution and the actual elimination of everything that contradicted the sovereignty of the people. This is nothing else than a revolutionary-democratic dictatorship.



The accusation then that the “radical left” does not deal with these questions in an “open” way is patently false. They just simply don’t engage in the false definitions and hegemonic language of liberals. And rightfully so.

But the extent of your own engagement with those terms is probably best shown when you use the example of Koestler’s book to analyze the internal logic of Stalinist politics. Yet Darkness at Noon is simple-minded moralism from an avowed anti-stalinist, and general anti-communist. I won’t be surprised if you similarly begins citing Open Society and Its Enemies when explaining a tenet of Hegel or Marx.

In any case, let me further engage your question using the terms of Marxism.

The true problem of democracy is, as Zizek points out, that “economic growth and global- capitalist processes structurally exclude democracy – even in the form that capitalism itself ascribes to it.”

So what can a class of slaves or exploited workers do within the confines of a liberal-democratic society? To take back Malcolm X and quote Zizek on the subject:

if a class of people is systematically deprived of their rights, of their very dignity as persons, they are eo ipso also released from their duties toward the social order, because this order is no longer their ethical substance—or, to quote Robin Wood: "When a social order fails to actualize its own ethical principles, that amounts to the self-destruction of those principles."


It is the truest form of democracy for an oppressed minority (not to mention an oppressed majority) to revolt under these circumstances; the false quandary you begin your essay with is meaningless.

To go further:

When Rosa Luxembourg wrote that "dictatorship consists in the way in which democracy is used and not in its abolition" her point was not that democracy is an empty frame that can be used by different political agents, but that there is a "class bias" inscribed into this very empty (procedural) frame. That is why when radical leftists came to power through elections, their signe de reconnaissance is that they move to "change the rules," to transform not only electoral
and other state mechanisms but also the entire logic of the political space (relying directly on the power of the mobilized movements; imposing different forms of local self-organization; etc.) to guarantee the hegemony of their base, they are guided by the right intuition about the "class bias" of the democratic form.



If this is still not clear, here is Lenin again on the subject:

You are violators of freedom, equality, and democracy—they shout at us on all sides, pointing to the inequality of the worker and the peasant under our Constitution, to the dissolution of the Constituent Assembly, to the forcible confiscation of surplus grain, and so forth. We reply—never in the world has there been a state which has done so much to remove the actual inequality, the actual lack of freedom from which the working peasant has been suffering for centuries. But we shall never recognise equality with the peasant profiteer, just as we do not recognise “equality” between the exploiter and the exploited, between the sated and the hungry, nor the “freedom” for the former to rob the latter.

Long ago Engels in his Anti-Dühring explained that the concept “equality” is moulded from the relations of commodity production; equality becomes a prejudice if it is not understood to mean the abolition of classes. This elementary truth regarding the distinction between the bourgeois-democratic and the socialist conception of equality is constantly being forgotten. But if it is not forgotten it becomes obvious that by overthrowing the bourgeoisie the proletariat takes the most decisive step towards the abolition of classes, and that in order to complete the process the proletariat must continue its class struggle, making use of the apparatus of state power and employing various methods of combating, influencing and bringing pressure to bear on the overthrown bourgeoisie and the vacillating petty bourgeoisie.



It is as Badoiu says: the world of the democrats is not the world of everyone. But this is true for Western bourgeois democracy, not hypothetical socialist democracy. You are inventing a problem where the really isn’t one, unless you fully buy into the very flawed liberal perspective. And let us not forget that Marxism and socialism, while containing a strong moral component, do not derive their validity from morality. It is a critique of contradictions and a project to provide a society free from those contradictions. Your assertion of a values-based moral reasoning is ultimately reactionary, and most of all, would make Nietzsche sad.

Is socialism negotiable? Perhaps with some other as yet defined alternative ideology. Is socialism negotiable with capitalism? Absolutely not.

#14
its a yes or no question aerdil
#15
[account deactivated]
#16
[account deactivated]
#17
David Liebe Hart
A lot of people say I look like Herman Cain, but it's just because he's African American like me.
Like · · @david_liebehart on Twitt · 12 hours ago via Twitter ·
72 people like this.
#18
[account deactivated]
#19
yo tom how many hispters are strolling around seattle is it like a more northerly portland?
#20
aerdil, I really do appreciate your reply, as a way of making me clarify my position. My intention was to critique liberalism from within the bounds of liberalism, in order to sort of wash my hands of it, to some degree. That is, I was arguing that even if you buy the basic coordinates of liberalism to some extent, it doesn't follow that you have to "tolerate" capitalism as a sort of defeated minority within a democratic process. You could, I argued, refuse the process itself and move towards a sort of socialist dictatorship.

The slavery example was not a specific empirical example so much as an analogy, that is, a way for liberals to imagine the situation. I explicitly said that you had to imagine a situation in which slaves and their allies were a minority of the population and that they wouldn't be able to build a majority for abolition. That's the thought experiment, the intent of which was to sort of deconstruct a moral consideration, showing that the values might easily conflict. And, in that situation, it is more about individual judgment than some sort of easy formula provided by people like Rawlsians.

I think that "democracy for socialists" may well increase "freedoms" or whatever to a significant extent, especially over time, which would reinforce the position, but the argument I was trying to make is that liberalism is basically wrong if it considers Marxism-Leninism to be moral insanity. That is, you can break the Rawlsian model using its own terms, especially if you consider things over time (which I didn't get into).

I originally conceived of the thread as a sort of joke based on Amartya Sen's capability approach, actually, as a way of deconstructing that model and showing that you could be a "Stalinist" and support that, but I felt it was more useful to consider Rawlsianism first.

Rosa Luxemburg is a useful person to bring up because she explicitly said that you don't "wait" for a majority, which is essentially impossible to build under capitalism she believed. She said you had to take power and then build a majority. That is, all her talk of workers' councils and such was not premised on the idea that they formed a true majority of all workers across Germany, but because these were organs of mass power that could seize power and then build a majority through socialist policies. That sort of theory is central to revolutionary socialism, I would suggest.
#21

aerdil posted:
yo tom how many hispters are strolling around seattle is it like a more northerly portland?



Portland is more suburban-feeling than Seattle. Seattle has a yuppie element to it that Portland takes in a more hipstery direction I think. Plenty of hipsters thouhg for sure

#22

getfiscal posted:
Rosa Luxemburg is a useful person to bring up because she explicitly said that you don't "wait" for a majority, which is essentially impossible to build under capitalism she believed. She said you had to take power and then build a majority. That is, all her talk of workers' councils and such was not premised on the idea that they formed a true majority of all workers across Germany, but because these were organs of mass power that could seize power and then build a majority through socialist policies. That sort of theory is central to revolutionary socialism, I would suggest.



To some extent I think Marxism indicates and provides some justification for this revolutionarism by arguing that, by virtue of their production under capitalism, the sites of socialist democracy are intrinsic to capitalism. As capital requires the living labor of the worker to reproduce itself, and seeks to abstract labor power into an exchangeable form at these sites (i.e. the factory), through a self-obviating logic (i.e. requiring living real labor to reproduce itself while simultaneously attempting to extirpate that real labor and substitute in the abstract labor universal) it lends weight to the socialist revolutionary impetus without needing any outside reference.