#81
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wait did someone actually deny the holodomor in this thread???
i think i need sleep
#82
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Yea, Sam Kriss started posting again
#83
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conec posted:

it was important to ukraine to remember their experience of the famine as its own "starvation" for a specific and separate set of reasons, which weren`t felt by the kazakhs. this was not because of nazi sentiment. the end.


no wait. what are the reasons

#84
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shriekingviolet posted:

wait did someone actually deny the holodomor in this thread???
i think i need sleep


if you stand in front of a mirror and say "i deny the holodomor" three times, robert conquest appears and gives you a wedgie

#85
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get this crap out of this thread that used to be cool!!!
#86
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#87
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c_man posted:

get this crap out of this thread that used to be cool!!!


yeah where the fuck are the mod- oh. sorry BHPN

#88
Dont Mess With Sucess
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tpaine posted:

dipshit420 posted:

it's a bit disingenuous to blame famine on one person

except if it's that 4 horseman guy?

lol

#89
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noone posted before anyway so its fine. i like the illusion that people have thoughts about science and dialectics
#90
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#91
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3 million children die every year of a man made famine; the Point of arguing against western historiography of the soviet famine isn't to shout 'No!! Stalin good man, not bad man!' but to

1: refute claims of intentional ethnic cleaning used by nationalists to assert the soviet union as a 'totalitarian mirror' of nazi germany

2: recognize the fact that under capitalism famine is normalized while under socialism famine is exceptional

likewise, the western narratives of 'the purge' or 'the great terror' must be fought not because they're besmirching the honor of our waifu nation the SU but because they're dressed up propaganda that obscures and inverts the actual lessons of 1933-38. even more than the inane counterfactuals about stalin assassinating kirov


who was not a 'popular politician opposed to stalin' as liars would assert but a 'popular politician who consistently supported stalin', or how the show trials had a significant amount of factual evidence

There was, moreover, always a grain of truth to the accusations of the show trials: a Trotskyist bloc had existed in the USSR, and Bukharin did know of a center, albeit a small one, organized against Stalin. At least one of Bukharin's followers spoke of killing the Vozhd. Putna was probably guilty of treason. The Germans fed the Gensec information incriminating Tukhachevskii, and evidence from various sources points to a plot in the army. Ezhov relayed damaging material on the officers to his boss. With some justification, Stalin saw dangerous opposition developing around him.


robert thurston is a liberal who hedges himself about 'stalin's mental instability' constantly but he's honest to the russian sources so good enough

is how the western narrative completely oblivates the simply fact that "The Great Terror" was a mass movement. the proles and peasants were not huddled in their huts paralyzed by fear, but leading the charge in rooting out the german spys, monarchists, and intentional saboteurs of industrial progress (wreckers) that they 'knew' threatened the socialist republic. shop workers would declare their bosses so incompetent they must be spys, or members of a kolkhoz would report the farm administrator to the nkvd for wasting resources and thus engaging in counter-revolutionary activity, and these reports were taken seriously and arrests often made

this isnt to say that 1936-7 wasnt an era of witch hunting with over a million wrongful imprisonments and executions, but that the true Great Terror of the period was that the gains the communists had made could be rolled back. the end of the second five-year plan was when the food rationing loosened, when schools began to churn out graduates en masse, and when the fear of reaction led to unrestrained, preemptive strikes. some weaknesses that led to the mass injustice were:

*institutional weakness: police generally operate in near impunity with minimal oversight, and the courts are understaffed and are slow to realize the enormity of the situation (they do eventually, and are key to slowing things down and later end up lightening or pardoning many of the sentences confirmed in '37)

*torture as accepted interrogation technique leads to mass confessions from the innocent

*bureaucratic opportunism: Ezhov, head of police, sets up secret quotas of arrests so he can continue to impress with his 'effective' routing out of the fifth column. he gets replaced in '38 and shot in '40

*torture as accepted interrogation technique holy shit this is so bad for any investigation in any circumstance

but the soviets figured this out themselves and mostly righted the situation in '39. the end of the terror doesn't come from Mad Stalin in his Dacha deciding e's Inflicted Enough Fear For Order, but the SU correcting and admonishing the paranoia that led to chaos. the fact that western historians spill so many words trying to construct an individual and conspiratorial frame around what is absolutely a mass social event shows that their purpose and aim is to obstruct the history of any socialist process

Edited by Scrree ()

#92
UNUSUALY COOL
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for bhpn's positive attitude he gets thread monitor. now i'm going fishing.
#93
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bhpn could you hellban me for drunk posting also do you think if i worked on my drunken screed above it would be fit for publishing? Thanks comrade
#94
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rip all victims of stalin, but especially dudes who were just patriots fighting the fascists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Voznesensky
#95
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Scrree posted:

bhpn could you hellban me for drunk posting also do you think if i worked on my drunken screed above it would be fit for publishing? Thanks comrade


please do this, we need more front page content and your argument is very good.

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#102
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IQujIvLZh58
#103
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conec posted:

what are you trying to say? simply that the western scholarship never emphasized this, or ignored it? maybe 30-40 years ago, this was true. the more recent social history doesn`t deny this.


but western scholarship from 30-40 years ago is what shaped the cold war discourse and continues to shape anti-communism today, people still refer to Conquest as the best primary source available even though Robert Conquest himself, a paid spook propagandist, eventually backpedaled on a lot of his claims. it doesn't matter what contemporary western scholarship is doing, they can work with more fidelity to truth now because the damage is done, the soviet union is destroyed, and the popular conception of the stalinist era is still shaped by ancient propaganda and paranoia.

#104
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#105
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sorry yall, we discovered gravity waves: "history is the same way". - johnny fiveaces, radical thinker
#106
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conec posted:

do you think propaganda is what "destroyed" the soviet union


clearly the soviet union failed due to a number of converging factors, I don't know how anyone of any political stripe would deny that concentrated opposition from the west including propaganda campaigns was one of them. do you think conquest was asked to conduct a smear campaign just for laughs? c'mon this is some weak shit

#107
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#108
UNUSUALY COOL
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a little while ago i mentioned william hinton's story about how the manuscript for fanshen was delayed from publication because it was seized at the border, and how while he was writing people in the government trying to get it freed up he went to talk to a colleague's class and it turned out to be a group of grad monkeys the professor had trained to call hinton a liar, too honest to be good for the united states, and so on, so they'd know how to do it later while denouncing him to the government. hinton never alleged a government plot to make that second part happen because he didn't have to, it was obviously the same machine gearing up for battle against red china after a brief period of having no idea what to do about it.

years later that same fash professor would become one of the official western "experts" on revolutionary china and would whine that he and his friends could have stopped communism, if only they had had something crazy impossible at their fingertips at the time such as a meticulous record of the real experience of the chinese people during the revolutionary period. the other thing hinton understood when fanshen was interdicted was that to prevent history being written, you just have to delay its entry into the record until your own people can invent it & publish in the "free press".
#109
UNUSUALY COOL
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bhpn, have you ever thought about how dialectics may have contributed to the invention of space travel, and thus all modern communications technology, by Communists
#110
UNUSUALY COOL
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i am trying to read about it and like, it's easier to find carl sagan quoting Voprosy Filosofii from sixty years ago than it is to find contemporary writing on the topic that does not issue from the pen of a single bangladeshi-american anti-commie propagandist
#111
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conec posted:

if scree makes that front page post i`m just gonna pop in and cite all the western historians who don`t do what he claims they do. idc if i get probate i need a probation neway... i deserve it..



i did not mean to say that all of western academia is entirely anti-communist. There are a number of western scholars that analyse their sources carefully and report the truth of the incredible success of the socialist experiment. This is true.

but those scholars do not determine the popular narrative. Which is defined by drivel like Bloodlands and works of anti-communists like George Orwell. The 'totalitarianism' argument and overt push to compare and equalize Stalin and Hitler in every way has lead most Americans to believe that the government that ended the holocaust is 'just as bad' as the one that started it.

and redeeming does 'matter' because, as evidenced by the PSL thread on SA where a Russian expat has spent incredible energy blithering about anarchism and the holodomor, anti-coms love to bring him up even more than I do, and thats saying a lot!! disinfo about the history of actually existing socialism is what leads potentailly radical people to those dead-end 'love the theory, hate the practice' ideologies like anarchism or democratic socialism

#112
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i dont know enough about soviet scholarship as a 'field' (as in an academically ossified petty bourgeois narrative) to claim one thing or another but I can tell you with 100% confidence that there is not a single Korean Studies scholar who is pro-North Korea. Whether you oppose North Korea or not is irrelevant, even biology has creationists and climatology has anti-global warming actual scientists. This is a matter of complete censorship and rigid thought control instead of truth or falsehood, it wouldn't surprise me if Soviet studies and Chinese studies were the same.

also good posts Scrree
#113
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babyhueypnewton posted:

conec posted:

babyhueypnewton posted:

Panopticon posted:

conec posted:

what did Lysenko achieve other than some marginal damage control and endorsement? besides, without Stalin, there is no Lysenko to post about. if you hate Stalin for being an evil dictator or whatever, then you should equally hate Lysenko for his helping hand in the great purge.

what they did or didn't do doesn't matter, objective truth is unknowable. most people believe stalin was a mass murderer, therefore stalin was a mass murderer, and it's not likely people will change their minds about that. most people are ignorant of lysenko though, so lysenko could be a pioneer of socialism unjustly ignored by bourgeois science if we repeat often enough that lysenko discovered epigenetics.

actually most people believe Stalin was a hero, it is simply the first world labor aristokkkracy who believe in fascist propaganda. and they will be reeducated during JDPON

this is incorrect. since the 1990s, survey respondents in post-soviet states have shown an increase in "support/approval" (gauged by questions like "who do you think the most influential figure in russian history is", or, do you think stalin was a good leader, or, do you think your country should have someone like stalin)
*no where* is there a majority who shows approval/support of stalin. at least not at any national level. perhaps this could be the case if it were just one city studied, because the recent phenomenon of soviet "nostalgia" is slightly enigmatic. but, to my knowledge, no one has wasted their time with that research yet.
also A) though u can control for a value, doesn`t mean that question and its answers really mean that there is a huge increase in support of stalin.
B) just 20 years ago, people`s responses were drastically different. so, this increase is almost definitely a reaction to heightened frustration with the liberal economic system.
contrary to rhizzone belief, it is khrushchev and brezhnev who are favored, *especially* brezhnev (according to data from the 70s and 80s)
stalin has a bad reputation - yes there is certainly "nostalgia" toward stalin, but it's not the majority who are experiencing it. nearly everyone who lived under stalin is dead now, anyway. so, all beliefs from the next generations onward are inherited and somewhat constructed.

there are 7 billion people in the world



sure Stalin did ruthless things and lots of people who admire him are dead, as conec said. but Stalin realised in the most direct way possible the Desirrs of the working class. he Carried revolution. To its logical conclusion. Stalin made hope for communism real. He made hope for a classless , gender less, egalitarian society real. So stfu about him imho...

#114
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make a new thread to talk about this stuff imo
#115
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c_man posted:

make a new thread to talk about this stuff imo


LOOK, A STALIN THREAD:
http://www.rhizzone.net/forum/topic/13223/?page=1#post-301851

#116
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#117
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conec posted:

^ gas it.

you already did. P U

#118
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EmanuelaBrolandi posted:

Do you come here only to post unreadable paragraphs rambling about your personal life and to argue with / insult other posters?


*raises paw*

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