The-- the secretary's obviously right. It is enormously complicated. But here's something that I believe we have to do is we put together an international coalition. And that is we have to understand that the Muslim nation in the region, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, Jordan, all of these nations, they're gonna just have to get their hands dirty, their boots on the ground.
They are gonna have to take on ISIS. This is a war for the soul of Islam. And those countries who are opposed to Islam, they are gonna have to get deeply involved in a way that is not the case today. We should be supportive of that effort. So should the UK, so should France. But those Muslim countries are gonna have to lead the efforts. They are not doing it now.
getfiscal posted:Let's cool it with the anti-semitic attacks on our good friend Sam Kriss.
Its a Bolshevik anti-Polish landlord poster...
https://twitter.com/FUGOSLAVIA/status/664457321582587904
camera_obscura posted:having grasped an octopus, is a fisherman able to control everything the octopus does with it's tentacles?
Its not about controlling all possible movements by the networks in questions, its about controlling the space in which they operate and the managing the outcomes of whatever the do. Belgrade and Moscow didn't need to micromanage every detail in the nearly completely botched assassination at Sarajevo, they just needed to stand ready to take advantage of its success with a sufficient air of plausible deniability.
An Octopus can move around more or less in whatever direction it wants if its securely in its tank.
In the simplest configurations, the subterranean instruction of the
terrorist ‘cell’ by the state’s secret services is part of a maneuver aimed at implicating this phantom ‘organization’ into a more or less spectacular act of sabotage. Sabotage either against the state itself, or against the ‘targeted enemy’, that is, a nation whose ruling clans are to be antagonized by the terrorist recruits in the name of ethnic or religious rivalry. In the first case, while the wounded government in the vengeful heat of retaliation ‘clamps down on the terrorists,’ a variety of prearranged ends, all congruent in point of social control and surveillance, is swiftly implemented.”
From “Conjuring Hitler” by Guido Preparata, 21
RedMaistre posted:camera_obscura posted:having grasped an octopus, is a fisherman able to control everything the octopus does with it's tentacles?
Its not about controlling all possible movements by the networks in questions, its about controlling the space in which they operate and the managing the outcomes of whatever the do. Belgrade and Moscow didn't need to micromanage every detail in the nearly completely botched assassination at Sarajevo, they just needed to stand ready to take advantage of its success with a sufficient air of plausible deniability.
An Octopus can move around more or less in whatever direction it wants if its securely in its tank.
Is it your supposition that a US-aligned operation permitted this most recent event with the goal of spurring the French toward a more interventionist strategy in the middle east?
camera_obscura posted:RedMaistre posted:camera_obscura posted:having grasped an octopus, is a fisherman able to control everything the octopus does with it's tentacles?
Its not about controlling all possible movements by the networks in questions, its about controlling the space in which they operate and the managing the outcomes of whatever the do. Belgrade and Moscow didn't need to micromanage every detail in the nearly completely botched assassination at Sarajevo, they just needed to stand ready to take advantage of its success with a sufficient air of plausible deniability.
An Octopus can move around more or less in whatever direction it wants if its securely in its tank.Is it your supposition that a US-aligned operation permitted this most recent event with the goal of spurring the French toward a more interventionist strategy in the middle east?
yes, as well to (1) solidify support for Atlanticism among Western Europe in general (2) inflame multiple forms of societal division (Muslims vs Non-Muslims, Moderate Muslims vs Wahhabist sympathizers, Pro-Eu vs. Anti-EU, pro-multicultural liberals vs. conservative patriots, etc) that serve to disorient any rational approach to Europe's problem by its various inhabitants themselves while obliging them to rely on the US for protection and aid.
Edited by RedMaistre ()
tpaine posted:SSHHAUUUUUNNN
ur kidnapped son in fallout 4 is named shaun too. all shauns now and forever are predisposed to get themselves kidnapped, get it together shaun.
getfiscal posted:BERNIE SANDERS:
The-- the secretary's obviously right. It is enormously complicated. But here's something that I believe we have to do is we put together an international coalition. And that is we have to understand that the Muslim nation in the region, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, Jordan, all of these nations, they're gonna just have to get their hands dirty, their boots on the ground.
They are gonna have to take on ISIS. This is a war for the soul of Islam. And those countries who are opposed to Islam, they are gonna have to get deeply involved in a way that is not the case today. We should be supportive of that effort. So should the UK, so should France. But those Muslim countries are gonna have to lead the efforts. They are not doing it now.
good speech from our bro bernie sanders, he obviously has a sophisticated grasp of the sectarian issues of the islamic world
http://pflp.ps/english/2015/11/14/barakat-heinous-crime-in-paris-is-the-responsibility-of-imperialism-colonialism-and-reactionary-takfiri-forces/
RedMaistre posted:camera_obscura posted:
RedMaistre posted:
camera_obscura posted:
having grasped an octopus, is a fisherman able to control everything the octopus does with it's tentacles?
Its not about controlling all possible movements by the networks in questions, its about controlling the space in which they operate and the managing the outcomes of whatever the do. Belgrade and Moscow didn't need to micromanage every detail in the nearly completely botched assassination at Sarajevo, they just needed to stand ready to take advantage of its success with a sufficient air of plausible deniability.
An Octopus can move around more or less in whatever direction it wants if its securely in its tank.
Is it your supposition that a US-aligned operation permitted this most recent event with the goal of spurring the French toward a more interventionist strategy in the middle east?
yes, as well to (1) solidify support for Atlanticism among Western Europe in general (2) inflame multiple forms of societal division (Muslims vs Non-Muslims, Moderate Muslims vs Wahhabist sympathizers, Pro-Eu vs. Anti-EU, pro-multicultural liberals vs. conservative patriots, etc) that serve to disorient any rational approach to Europe's problem by its various inhabitants themselves while obliging them to rely on the US for protection and aid.
so, we already know clearly with full documentation that hundreds FBI informants in the US have been working more or less as independent contractors with no legal or ethical bounds to incite desperate, poor, sometimes mentally disabled people into terrorist acts to present them for show arrests and get paid for producing this theatre
it seems like an obvious parallel that in the era of Wikileaks and FOIA requests, i.e. the era of never write anything down if it's truly important, the US foreign intel apparatus has necessarily become more like terrorist cells themselves, independent agents with tenuous connections, receiving money to funnel wherever they decide, making independent untraceable decisions about what is warranted and what moves to make to further US goals in their operational area. and any time you have independent well-funded fanatic actors like that, obviously shit gets fucked up fast and hard and is completely out of control. so, if some quasi-independent actor decided radicalizing French hard-right militants is necessary, then they bomb paris.
if a completely-untouched-by-the-US isis-alqaeda-whatever terrorist cell decide radicalizing French muslims is necessary, then they too bomb paris. there's no functional difference. qed there is no difference between cia operations and terrorism. radicalization of muslims or fascists in either case furthers the goals of the us.
america is terrorism. hooray.
When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
discipline posted:
hahaha
tpaine posted:NEEH HEE HEHE HEEE. MON PIERRE, IT SEEMZ AS ZOUGH WE HAVE BEENE ATTACKEDE!! HAUL ZEE BAGUETTES TO A SAFE SPOTTEE!!!! lmao
RedMaistre posted:"Barakat said that such entities as “Al-Qaeda,” “Al-Nusra,” “ISIS” and other obscurantist, reactionary takfiri forces will not last long as a force and are “in the process of disappearing, partially at the hands of those who have shaped them, after being used to achieve specific goals, employed in the creation of chaos, sabotage and sectarianism, and failing to achieve the objectives of imperialist and reactionary Arab forces in a number of regions and countries.”
http://pflp.ps/english/2015/11/14/barakat-heinous-crime-in-paris-is-the-responsibility-of-imperialism-colonialism-and-reactionary-takfiri-forces/
Great interview and cuts immediately to the heart of the matter which has already been raised in this thread but can't be stressed enough
Barakat said that “the fascist right wing and the Zionist enemy are the sole beneficiaries of this heinous crime, which is a net profit for them. Arabs, and in particular Palestinians, are and will pay the price of both the attacks that took place in Bourj al-Barajneh in south Beirut against innocent people, and those in Paris, also against civilians.” Barakat pointed to “a wave of racism that some are trying to incite in Lebanon against our Palestinian people, which is even more severe in colonial France, where we are witnessing rising waves of racism and hatred against migrants, refugees and poor citizens, particularly Arabs and Africans in Europe.”
I'm far less interested in who the individual attackers were and their personal motivations than I am in staring the obvious in the face - who actually benefits, who is bound to benefit, from such attacks. And beyond getting maybe half a dozen more militarily hopeless new Belgian recruits, it's not ISIS.
Edited by winebaby ()
aerdil posted:i really hope sam kriss has to write a super embarrassing mea culpa before getting an actual writing job like mobute
camera_obscura posted:Is it your supposition that a US-aligned operation permitted this most recent event with the goal of spurring the French toward a more interventionist strategy in the middle east?
if the hack writers of the latest James Bong film can come up with this strategy then im pretty sure all the satan worshiping childfuckers in the CIA can too
Superabound posted:the satan worshiping childfuckers in the CIA
catchphrase
drwhat posted:so, we already know clearly with full documentation that hundreds FBI informants in the US have been working more or less as independent contractors with no legal or ethical bounds to incite desperate, poor, sometimes mentally disabled people into terrorist acts to present them for show arrests and get paid for producing this theatre
it seems like an obvious parallel that in the era of Wikileaks and FOIA requests, i.e. the era of never write anything down if it's truly important, the US foreign intel apparatus has necessarily become more like terrorist cells themselves, independent agents with tenuous connections, receiving money to funnel wherever they decide, making independent untraceable decisions about what is warranted and what moves to make to further US goals in their operational area. and any time you have independent well-funded fanatic actors like that, obviously shit gets fucked up fast and hard and is completely out of control. so, if some quasi-independent actor decided radicalizing French hard-right militants is necessary, then they bomb paris.
if a completely-untouched-by-the-US isis-alqaeda-whatever terrorist cell decide radicalizing French muslims is necessary, then they too bomb paris. there's no functional difference. qed there is no difference between cia operations and terrorism. radicalization of muslims or fascists in either case furthers the goals of the us.
america is terrorism. hooray.
there's nothing new about that though
