I gotta debate that "the market is the key to economic and human development tomorrow" for a class tomorrow
can anyone help me undermine this whole thing besides covering myself in shit and saying ronpaulronpaulronpaulronpaul?
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/10/economist_ha_joon_chang_on_the
discipline posted:what do you mean by "the market"
that's up to us I guess, a self-regulating system for the distribution of goods and labour using prices?
Lessons posted:he's not exactly anti-capitalist but ha-joon chang would be a really good place to start if you want an easy-to-explain critique of free market dogma. good luck.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/10/economist_ha_joon_chang_on_the
cool, checking this out.
i'm actually ok with going against the market, i just have to defend it this time...
just say that every society has them, and in communist countries, if you've been paying attention, markets always return organically and often spontaneously. it's not like communism breaks out amongst people like that, it's always a self-apointed elite seizing power, not a "bottom-up" system like markets.
which one do you think is more relevant to, if not nature, then at least the human condition.
girdles_gone_wild posted:it's all about islam
word
Ironicwarcriminal posted:so you have to argue for the market?
just say that every society has them, and in communist countries, if you've been paying attention, markets always return organically and often spontaneously. it's not like communism breaks out amongst people like that, it's always a self-apointed elite seizing power, not a "bottom-up" system like markets.
which one do you think is more relevant to, if not nature, then at least the human condition.
well you could say that communes and communal farming come about spontaneously sometimes?
useful points though, spectre of communism does make it easy. I'm probably going to rely on amartya sen's idea on development as freedom
discipline posted:well I'm just asking because when you say "the market" that can mean a lot of things. I think financialization, tho there are labor + commodity issues too
I guess it comes down to marxian vs. neoclassical views of the market. neoclassicalists believe that the market is a 'neutral arbitrator' for prices and distribution, which is rooted in methodological individualism that believes all humans are: 1. rational self-maximizers, 2. have access to perfect information, 3. basically all the same when it comes to relations. therefore the market would be where these lil robots meet to trade, it would be the mechanism through which equitable distribution and pricing would occur.
of course it doesn't take a genius to figure out this is bullshit. marxians would believe that the market is of course a tool wielded by the wealthy to dispossess and discipline labor. you can see this pretty clearly nowadays with greece and what happened with argentina, and all these hackles against france. they're speaking about the market as if it's some sort of godhead who is divorced from reality: well we don't want to see your people starve but you never know what big daddy market is gonna think about you taxing the wealthy. of course we know what the rich are gonna think about taxing the wealthy. of course we know what the market is gonna do! marxists believe that class reproduction in the face of struggle is the primary drive of history. so of course the market is not going to be impartial!
as for how it relates to development, well I can give you a ton of stuff to read on this but I need to know how you want to argue it I guess? like do you want to talk about labor market flexibility or financialization for instance? I don't know where you're at in school either. haha sorry.
thanks for taking your time with this, i'm in a masters of development studies, with a background in international relations so my economics is a bit rusty. the course has been pretty critical of the market and its applications to development, so i'll actually be working against most the material we've seen.
like I said above i'm probably going to focus on amartya sen's ideas and talk about the market as the most effective and pervasive means of giving agency to humanity with equal opportunity. obviously there are massive problems with this and i feel like I have to completely discount reducing inequality as a part of development to justify it.
discipline posted:just kidding chances are no one will argue against it effectively because the world is a vampire set to drain
i'm probably just going to put on a reagan mask and beat off onto the other team
well you could say that communes and communal farming come about spontaneously sometimes?
Yeah sometimes in some random jungle place where they all die of dysentery maybe. We're talking about economic and human development here. what is the story of economic and human development if not the story of capitalism?
Point to Manhattan! Point to your coffee! Point at Beijing! Point to how nice your girlfriend looks in that cashmere sweater: the way it brings out her eyes, the warm glow she gives off when she wears it......
Our system of development is capitalism, it is the markets, full stop. The old totalitarian ideologies of the 20th century are dead. The story of the market is the story of you and me, the REALITY of the market is the reality of Us.
There is no alternative. The market drives us. In what possible way cannot it not be, the key to economic and human development tomorrow?
Ironicwarcriminal posted:well you could say that communes and communal farming come about spontaneously sometimes?
Yeah sometimes in some random jungle place where they all die of dysentery maybe. We're talking about economic and human development here. what is the story of economic and human development if not the story of capitalism?
Point to Manhattan! Point to your coffee! Point at Beijing! Point to how nice your girlfriend looks in that cashmere sweater: the way it brings out her eyes, the warm glow she gives off when she wears it......
Our system of development is capitalism, it is the markets, full stop. The old totalitarian ideologies of the 20th century are dead. The story of the market is the story of you and me, the REALITY of the market is the reality of Us.
There is no alternative. The market drives us. In what possible way cannot it not be, the key to economic and human development tomorrow?
This is beautiful and be glad that I'm pretty much going to crib this for my closing argument.
On the other hand though, couldn't you say that if it weren't for the need for massive inequality in capitalism, development as an industry wouldn't exist? Is it even possible to have a 'functioning' capitalist system without the global poor?
discipline posted:Mr_Asia_Man posted:
thanks for taking your time with this, i'm in a masters of development studies, with a background in international relations so my economics is a bit rusty. the course has been pretty critical of the market and its applications to development, so i'll actually be working against most the material we've seen.
ahaha where are you studying
university of sydney, it's actually an anthropology course. some of it's been really good, but this class has been pretty terrible. Fuck discourse analysis.
discipline posted:*spits tea all over keyboard laughing*
that's my future you're laughing about >:[
discipline posted:Mr_Asia_Man posted:that's my future you're laughing about >:[
no it's Mine
You studying?
And that's a pretty sweet chart, I don't know if the state is actually that distinct from the market. have you heard of this?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Transformation_(book)
discipline posted:Mr_Asia_Man posted:You studying?
And that's a pretty sweet chart, I don't know if the state is actually that distinct from the market. have you heard of this?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Transformation_(book)yes I'm in london
yes I've read polanyi. you should read ben fine, carlos oya and tom marois
thanks for the reading list, is ben fine one of your professors?
what are you studying?
Mr_Asia_Man posted:Ironicwarcriminal posted:well you could say that communes and communal farming come about spontaneously sometimes?
Yeah sometimes in some random jungle place where they all die of dysentery maybe. We're talking about economic and human development here. what is the story of economic and human development if not the story of capitalism?
Point to Manhattan! Point to your coffee! Point at Beijing! Point to how nice your girlfriend looks in that cashmere sweater: the way it brings out her eyes, the warm glow she gives off when she wears it......
Our system of development is capitalism, it is the markets, full stop. The old totalitarian ideologies of the 20th century are dead. The story of the market is the story of you and me, the REALITY of the market is the reality of Us.
There is no alternative. The market drives us. In what possible way cannot it not be, the key to economic and human development tomorrow?This is beautiful and be glad that I'm pretty much going to crib this for my closing argument.
On the other hand though, couldn't you say that if it weren't for the need for massive inequality in capitalism, development as an industry wouldn't exist? Is it even possible to have a 'functioning' capitalist system without the global poor?
they just said "human and economic development", they didn't say it shit about it having to be good or optimum
they just "human and economic development", they didn't say it shit about it having to be good or optimum
yeah true, i was more asking for myself.
Ironicwarcriminal posted:hhey Sydney buddy
why is it so cold man
your best bet, i suppose, is arguing that the state and "market forces" are two separate entities. thank to all the neoliberal economic propaganda, it's become a common misconception that this is true, even though the reality is that the state, the "market" and the economy are all one in the same
discipline posted:Porter (2005), Veltmeyer (2010), Murphy (2010), Harvey (1999), Burnham (1997), Haque (2008), Robinson W.I. (2007), Saad Filho, and really try and find the chapter “Privatization’s Shaky Theoretical Foundations” by Ben Fine (2008) in "Privatization and Alternative Public Sector Reform in Sub-Saharan Africa: Delivering on Electricity and Water" coz it lays it out real good
Thanks! I'm downloading Fine's book off palgrave connect. Databases are probably the only university facility that doesn't make me want to tear everything down
I suddenly wondered if LF ever moved so I just googled Laissez's Faire and boom. I used to lurk on SA because I never had my own account and 10 bucks, fuck that.
Mr_Asia_Man posted:university of sydney, it's actually an anthropology course. some of it's been really good, but this class has been pretty terrible. Fuck discourse analysis.
Cool, I just got off the phone with your dean, he was very interested to hear about the plagiarizing anthropology student who threatened to masturbate himself onto his classmates. Good luck.
swampman posted:Mr_Asia_Man posted:university of sydney, it's actually an anthropology course. some of it's been really good, but this class has been pretty terrible. Fuck discourse analysis.
Cool, I just got off the phone with your dean, he was very interested to hear about the plagiarizing anthropology student who threatened to masturbate himself onto his classmates. Good luck.
Thanks for the good word, brah
discipline posted:lol if you think the market is essential to development rather than in service to class interests just take a gander at what happened to the former soviet union w/r/t privatization
Hahah I'm not that naive! Yeah that's one hell of a case study. I just assumed that the ideology was put out before privatisation really occurred, not the other way around.