VanguardYouAndDie posted:

When I read that Austrian economics was going on a tangent about non linear time I gave upon learning more than what the typical layperson gets by doing some reading.

Marx's LTV, use vs exchange value, and Marx's answer to capital crises seemed a lot more explanatory and useful than "bluh blah, deregulate, cheaper labor, cut taxes, blarughhh"

Marx's economics doesn't hold a candle to the Austrians. It doesn't come down to who creates a better economic model, it comes down to an ethical dilemma. in theory liberty v. equality.

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

So I know there is no western Left anymore so it’s not really much of an issue, but what angles do Austrian or just regular ole neoliberal economists take to engage with or critique Marxist economics.

Is it just like “nah none of this class stuff is relevant because we’re all rational individuals” or what?

nah i'm decently well versed in the Austrians and if you guys actually care to look into this further, von Mises had a series of lectures that were eventually compiled into a book called Marxism unmasked or something. he's one of the core 4 or 5 austrians.

VanguardYouAndDie posted:

Usually they just say "LTV IS BULLSHIT!"

Literally that's basically it.

you're not making sense. make an actual argument.

Jerthebear posted:

babyfinland posted:

Jerthebear posted:

VanguardYouAndDie posted:

That's what they say about Marx's critiques and then ignore any further inquiry. That or maybe they say "MARGINALISTS!!!"

lol you've proven your inability to debate effectively so i'll bite. i'll defend any austrian position you choose.

how does austrian theory address labor theory of value

like anyone else..? That labor is not the only component to value... supply and demand? markets decide what is valuable. if i spend my entire life making a piece of shit product it doesn't make it valuable. also, some people's labor hours are worth more than others due to education, know-how, etc.

that doesnt actually address marxian LTV though. its a technical term, not a ethical claim about value. market value is included in marxian theory.

Jerthebear posted:

babyfinland posted:

that doesnt actually address marxian LTV though. its a technical term, not a ethical claim about value. market value is included in marxian theory.

well can you pose an actual question because I'm not as well marxed as you lot. do you mean his exploitation theory of workers creation of wealth?

yes

babyfinland posted:

Jerthebear posted:

babyfinland posted:

that doesnt actually address marxian LTV though. its a technical term, not a ethical claim about value. market value is included in marxian theory.

well can you pose an actual question because I'm not as well marxed as you lot. do you mean his exploitation theory of workers creation of wealth?

yes

well marx argues that this exploitation turns the worker into a commodity which is exactly what also breaks his argument apart. a worker is not coerced to work for anyone. competition over low-wage workers (commodities) is exactly what drove their price up. pre WWI bottom 20% wages were being driven up at a tremendous rate .

tpaine posted:

being white rules because i get to skim the last few pages of the thread without having to care about whatever stupid shit was said on them

i'm not white and *seizes up* same.. just same

tpaine posted:

being white rules because i get to skim the last few pages of the thread without having to care about whatever stupid shit was said on them

Jerthebear posted:

well i'm going to assume everybody lost interest in conversing with me gonna hit the hay.

I immediately cast my eyes toward the cleared ground, from which I was but at a small distance, in order to see whether it was not occasioned by a sudden shower; when at that instant a sound resembling a deep rough voice, uttered, as I thought, a few inarticulate monosyllables. Alarmed and surprized, I precipitately looked all round, when I perceived at about six rods distance something resembling a cage, suspended to the limbs of a tree; all the branches of which appeared covered with large birds of prey, fluttering about, and anxiously endeavouring to perch on the cage. Actuated by an involuntary motion of my hands, more than by any design of my mind, I fired at them; they all flew to a short distance, with a most hideous noise: when, horrid to think and painful to repeat, I perceived a negro, suspended in the cage, and left there to expire! I shudder when I recollect that the birds had already picked out his eyes, his cheek bones were bare; his arms had been attacked in several places, and his body seemed covered with a multitude of wounds. From the edges of the hollow sockets and from the lacerations with which he was disfigured, the blood slowly dropped, and tinged the ground beneath. No sooner were the birds flown, than swarms of insects covered the whole body of this unfortunate wretch, eager to feed on his mangled flesh and to drink his blood. I found myself suddenly arrested by the power of affright and terror; my nerves were convulsed; I trembled, I stood motionless, involuntarily contemplating the fate of this negro, in all its dismal latitude. The living spectre, though deprived of his eyes, could still distinctly hear, and in his uncouth dialect begged me to give him some water to allay his thirst. Humanity herself would have recoiled back with horror; she would have balanced whether to lessen such reliefless distress, or mercifully with one blow to end this dreadful scene of agonizing torture ! Had I had a ball in my gun, I certainly should have despatched him ; but finding myself unable to perform so kind an office, I sought, though trembling, to relieve him as well as I could. A shell ready fixed to a pole, which had been used by some negroes, presented itself to me; filled it with water, and with trembling hands I guided it to the quivering lips of the wretched sufferer. Urged by the irresistible power of thirst, he endeavoured to meet it, as he instinctively guessed its approach by the noise it made in passing through the bars of the cage. "Tanke, you white man, tanke you, pute some poy'son and give me." "How long have you been hanging there?" I asked him. "Two days, and me no die; the birds, the birds; aaah me!"

Oppressed with the reflections which this shocking spectacle afforded me, I mustered strength enough to walk away, and soon reached the house at which I intended to dine. There I heard that the reason for this slave being thus punished, was on account of his having killed the overseer of the plantation. They told me that the laws of self-preservation rendered such executions necessary; and supported the doctrine of slavery with the arguments generally made use of to justify the practice; with the repetition of which I shall not trouble you at present. Adieu.