#1

The Moral Case for Drones
By SCOTT SHANE
Washington

FOR streamlined, unmanned aircraft, drones carry a lot of baggage these days, along with their Hellfire missiles. Some people find the very notion of killer robots deeply disturbing. Their lethal operations inside sovereign countries that are not at war with the United States raise contentious legal questions. They have become a radicalizing force in some Muslim countries. And proliferation will inevitably put them in the hands of odious regimes.

But most critics of the Obama administration’s aggressive use of drones for targeted killing have focused on evidence that they are unintentionally killing innocent civilians. From the desolate tribal regions of Pakistan have come heartbreaking tales of families wiped out by mistake and of children as collateral damage in the campaign against Al Qaeda. And there are serious questions about whether American officials have understated civilian deaths.

So it may be a surprise to find that some moral philosophers, political scientists and weapons specialists believe armed, unmanned aircraft offer marked moral advantages over almost any other tool of warfare.

“I had ethical doubts and concerns when I started looking into this,” said Bradley J. Strawser, a former Air Force officer and an assistant professor of philosophy at the Naval Postgraduate School. But after a concentrated study of remotely piloted vehicles, he said, he concluded that using them to go after terrorists not only was ethically permissible but also might be ethically obligatory, because of their advantages in identifying targets and striking with precision.

“You have to start by asking, as for any military action, is the cause just?” Mr. Strawser said. But for extremists who are indeed plotting violence against innocents, he said, “all the evidence we have so far suggests that drones do better at both identifying the terrorist and avoiding collateral damage than anything else we have.”

Since drone operators can view a target for hours or days in advance of a strike, they can identify terrorists more accurately than ground troops or conventional pilots. They are able to time a strike when innocents are not nearby and can even divert a missile after firing if, say, a child wanders into range.

Clearly, those advantages have not always been used competently or humanely; like any other weapon, armed drones can be used recklessly or on the basis of flawed intelligence. If an operator targets the wrong house, innocents will die.

Moreover, any analysis of actual results from the Central Intelligence Agency’s strikes in Pakistan, which has become the world’s unwilling test ground for the new weapon, is hampered by secrecy and wildly varying casualty reports. But one rough comparison has found that even if the highest estimates of collateral deaths are accurate, the drones kill fewer civilians than other modes of warfare.

AVERY PLAW, a political scientist at the University of Massachusetts, put the C.I.A. drone record in Pakistan up against the ratio of combatant deaths to civilian deaths in other settings. Mr. Plaw considered four studies of drone deaths in Pakistan that estimated the proportion of civilian victims at 4 percent, 6 percent, 17 percent and 20 percent respectively.

But even the high-end count of 20 percent was considerably lower than the rate in other settings, he found. When the Pakistani Army went after militants in the tribal area on the ground, civilians were 46 percent of those killed. In Israel’s targeted killings of militants from Hamas and other groups, using a range of weapons from bombs to missile strikes, the collateral death rate was 41 percent, according to an Israeli human rights group.

In conventional military conflicts over the last two decades, he found that estimates of civilian deaths ranged from about 33 percent to more than 80 percent of all deaths.

Mr. Plaw acknowledged the limitations of such comparisons, which mix different kinds of warfare. But he concluded, “A fair-minded evaluation of the best data we have available suggests that the drone program compares favorably with similar operations and contemporary armed conflict more generally.”

By the count of the Bureau of Investigative Journalism in London, which has done perhaps the most detailed and skeptical study of the strikes, the C.I.A. operators are improving their performance. The bureau has documented a notable drop in the civilian proportion of drone casualties, to 16 percent of those killed in 2011 from 28 percent in 2008. This year, by the bureau’s count, just three of the 152 people killed in drone strikes through July 7 were civilians.

The drone’s promise of precision killing and perfect safety for operators is so seductive, in fact, that some scholars have raised a different moral question: Do drones threaten to lower the threshold for lethal violence?

“In the just-war tradition, there’s the notion that you only wage war as a last resort,” said Daniel R. Brunstetter, a political scientist at the University of California at Irvine who fears that drones are becoming “a default strategy to be used almost anywhere.”

With hundreds of terrorist suspects killed under President Obama and just one taken into custody overseas, some question whether drones have become not a more precise alternative to bombing but a convenient substitute for capture. If so, drones may actually be encouraging unnecessary killing.

Few imagined such debates in 2000, when American security officials first began to think about arming the Predator surveillance drone, with which they had spotted Osama bin Laden at his Afghanistan base, said Henry A. Crumpton, then deputy chief of the C.I.A.’s counterterrorism center, who tells the story in his recent memoir, “The Art of Intelligence.”

“We never said, ‘Let’s build a more humane weapon,’ ” Mr. Crumpton said. “We said, ‘Let’s be as precise as possible, because that’s our mission — to kill Bin Laden and the people right around him.’ ”

Since then, Mr. Crumpton said, the drone war has prompted an intense focus on civilian casualties, which in a YouTube world have become harder to hide. He argues that technological change is producing a growing intolerance for the routine slaughter of earlier wars.

“Look at the firebombing of Dresden, and compare what we’re doing today,” Mr. Crumpton said. “The public’s expectations have been raised dramatically around the world, and that’s good news.”

Scott Shane is a national security reporter for The New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/15/sunday-review/the-moral-case-for-drones.html?_r=1


#2
i've decided that it is a moral case for drones but in the sense of senseless followers
#3
i expected IWC to be quoted in this article, as happens frequently nowadays
#4
the moral case for drones... to strike scott shane's house
#5
the jevons paradox of murder efficiency
#6
Some people find the very notion of killer robots deeply disturbing.
#7
...on weed
#8

gyrofry posted:

Some people find the very notion of killer robots deeply disturbing.



not this otaku ^.^

#9
maybe we should stop bombing ppl altogether and try to understand their grievances?
#10
holy christ it actually uses the "less civilian deaths as time goes on" defense.

that's exactly what people used to say about aid to the Salvadoran govt. every time the issue came up in congress.

"guys, they only murdered 1,000 unarmed peasants this year as opposed to 3,000 last year. maybe if we send them even more weapons they'll be down to 500 next year."
#11
#12

HenryKrinkle posted:

maybe we should stop bombing ppl altogether and try to understand their grievances?



No.

#13
when michael ignatieff was running for liberal leader in 2006, who is the sort of guy that would write an article like this, he was asked what he thought of the israeli bombing at qana in lebanon or whatever. anyway he went "i'm not losing any sleep over it" which is not a good political thing to say and all the jawas got mad at him. so the next day he goes well yeah i shouldn't have been so flippant, it was probably a war crime. and the hebrews flip out and are like what the fuck bro i thought you were on our side and he went to a jewish centre and repented and reflected that the day the words "war crime" came out of his mouth were the worst day of his life. he later became liberal leader and took the liberals to their worst showing in history.
#14
when did noam chomsky start writing satire for the nyt?
#15

GoldenLionTamarin posted:


'
that's the asshole who spent an hour on the phone telling me to power cycle down computer when i called dell tech support last week because my oldest son kept putting his turkey sandwich in the blu-ray player

#16
#17
the only moral case for drones is if theyre forced to work like actual bee drones and mutually destroy their operators anytime they deploy their stingers
#18

peepaw posted:

GoldenLionTamarin posted:

http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100907/images/news.2010.450.potti.jpg

'
that's the asshole who spent an hour on the phone telling me to power cycle down computer when i called dell tech support last week because my oldest son kept putting his turkey sandwich in the blu-ray player



nice racism.

#19

getfiscal posted:

when michael ignatieff was running for liberal leader in 2006, who is the sort of guy that would write an article like this, he was asked what he thought of the israeli bombing at qana in lebanon or whatever. anyway he went "i'm not losing any sleep over it" which is not a good political thing to say and all the jawas got mad at him. so the next day he goes well yeah i shouldn't have been so flippant, it was probably a war crime. and the hebrews flip out and are like what the fuck bro i thought you were on our side and he went to a jewish centre and repented and reflected that the day the words "war crime" came out of his mouth were the worst day of his life. he later became liberal leader and took the liberals to their worst showing in history.



jack layton stressed deliberation during the flotilla raids and asked that no canadians be harmed the next time it happened. only the good die young...

#20
[account deactivated]
#21
layton wasn't generally terrible on foreign policy. some people get angry at him for initially supporting afghanistan (he did) and then supporting the liberals under martin for a year without a pull-out plan. in my mind though libya was sort of proof he would have been pretty similar to say gerhard schroeder.

like paul dewar has been pretty set on trying to make a name for himself as a level-headed foreign policy statesman or whatever and his first real test of that was when layton was basically like okay what's our policy on libya. and dewar was like well he's bombing his own people and that's not cool. but we don't want to get bogged down in another afghanistan and our main tools should be diplomatic. but we need to look reasonable and that includes providing air cover for a diplomatic solution to work out, otherwise gaddafi will just level the rebel areas and we'll be fucked. so the ndp came out in support of the no-fly zone plan.

and so things looked like they had reached a stalemate where gaddafi was out of benghazi but the rebels couldn't really advance. and obviously nato was bombing whatever without regard to actual flying targets or whatever. and some people in the ndp caucus are like wait what are we really going to commit to a war here. so dewar starts putting out stuff and giving speeches about how the mission needs to end now and how we need a diplomatic solution and how ground troops would be a huge disaster (while knowing special forces are all over libya).

anyway like the very next day the rebels broke out of eastern libya and within a week or two they held tripoli. so the ndp pivoted and was like okay well we need to be involved in peace in libya but let's not get too messed up in this but remember how we supported the no-fly zone well i guess it worked.

and layton backed dewar all the way on that stuff and that was pretty good proof to me that he had no idea about war stuff. because it's pretty dumb to think you can just always talk up development aid when there is a conflict. like this idea of pristine isolation a lot of leftists come up with where they are like oh just "leave" afghanistan, or "leave" iraq or whatever as if there isn't a world-system is sort of hypocritical to me, and whenever a social-democrat is tested on that they always buckle.
#22

Goethestein posted:

nice racism.



#23
getfiscal i have a pet theory that you are actually nardwuar the human serviette irl. c/d??
#24
i dont understand the problem, if senselessly slaughtering innocent people is instrumental to achieving elite goals then surely theres a moral case to be made for senselessly slaughtering fewer innocent people in pursuit of same, or indeed senselessly slaughtering the same number of innocent people but achieving more. efficiency is an inherently moral cause however you argue it.
#25

TROT_CUMLOVER posted:

getfiscal i have a pet theory that you are actually nardwuar the human serviette irl. c/d??

wow, nardwuar. i remember in the mid-1990s i would watch his interviews and laugh like crazy. dude rules.

#26
#27
i love Tylers voice. i could listen to him talk all day (no homo)
#28
moral case for energy domes
#29
q: are we not men? a: we are wddp
#30
Devolution is a liberal lie. i believe in Unintelligent Design