babyfinland posted:

Haha. Theology stopped being relevant with the Enlightenment and secularization-liberalization of European imperial administrations. Tru dat

Welcome Welcome Welcome.

DogTown posted:

babyfinland posted:

yeah i definitely clicked the pedophile youtube you posted

It was about the christian (and thus islamic) necessity of unconditional welcoming.

go to hell

DogTown posted:

This was particularly brought to mind by a recent post over there comparing God to Santa Claus. I actually like the comparison, and will use it to make the complete opposite point they make. Sidenote: This will incidentally show that Reason, the 'God' of Atheists, is a tool for justifying beliefs rather than a set of revealed truths. Starting from a set of assumptions and then connecting ideas until you've convinced yourself is how I see Reason commonly being used, especially on reddit.

The post says this: "Being atheist is like being the 1st grader who figured out Santa isn't real. Even though you are right, if you open your mouth everyone hates you."

Let's look at the different layers of truth around this statement. The outer most layer is correct. God and Santa, as mythical Bearded White Men, do not exist at the north pole or up in the clouds. But any adult who believes in could tell you that you've missed the forest for the trees with this type of analysis.

So we've concluded that God and Santa do not exist as real and definite objects within space and time. We can also avoid speculating on any metaphysical Santas and Gods because we cannot explore anything real and definite that could exist outside of space and time to see if they are there.

What then do I believe in, if not a real and definite diety? I believe in what is called a 'real abstraction', or a Fetish. Fetishism, the philosophical term, means the attribution of religious or mystical qualities to objects. It is the use of abstracted cognition to imbue powerless objects with a social power, a power that only exists because people believe in it.

This sounds like something a red-blooded rational atheist would not be caught dead believing in, except they do, all the time. Anyone who has bought things with money has used the power of Commodity Fetishism to give their pretty pieces of paper and metal a large amount of social power. Even Ayn Rand could not escape this leap of faith.

And this is exactly the magic of Christmas too, isn't it? That it's only special because people believe in it, and because in lieu of the Santa Clause the Man that doesn't exist, each year men and women strive to embody the spirit of Santa Clause the Fetish by taking on his spirit of generosity and love. And thus Santa becomes real, just as money does have real and definite power. In each case, the power originates not in the object but in what the object signifies about the relations between humans.

And it is of course, the magic of Religion is similar too. God does not exist separate from any part of the universe. There is no God sitting around hoping people believe in him and creating miracles when he so chooses. 'God', as I understand it, is all that is and isn't, was and wasn't, will and will not be. God is a 'real abstraction', the largest Fetish around. A Fetish that, when believed in truly, re-enchants the world with the magic Newton accidentally drained from it.

Of course my friends, my belongings, my country, my planet, my self, my beliefs are not a Bearded White Man. But if I believe that each and everyone of them is imbued with the Spirit of the Divine, then I find I can approach each day, no matter how challenging, with the Will of a Templar, the Love of a Saint, and the Generosity of Santa Claus.

And I find that by believing in this God (and by extension, believing in myself), I am granted small miracles every day. God grants me smiles in the form of a satisfied customer. God grants me lessons through hardship. God (All that is) grants me the joy and pain of life, and with infinite mercy, God will grant me the final gift of oblivion once my time for enjoying life has ended.

namaste *bows*

DogTown posted:

Its not for you. Please, everyone else but you, stop bleiveing. I wish you wouldn't listen.

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

i honestly don't see how reverence for the mysteries of the cosmos is any different to worshipping god

kinch posted:

whats a good joke involving nmda receptor antagonists

Hey you idiot you screwed your own brain over!!

littlegreenpills posted:

Ironicwarcriminal posted:
i honestly don't see how reverence for the mysteries of the cosmos is any different to worshipping god


I thought you were opposed to the space program

Who said i'm not? It's disgusting that the same people who condemn giving Israel 3 billion dollars a year as "waste" are happy to spend even more to indulge in some nerd Mars video-game fantasy

Alyosha posted:

Theists also consider themselves to uphold Reason.

Many atheists think God is supposed to exist in space and time. But this is not what theists claim. They claim that God created space and time, not that he is part of it. God is extra-universal, although he can tamper with the universe as he wishes. The Christian view does have God present in all of our souls via the Holy Spirit; and, of course, God is believed to have once come to Earth as a human. But this is not the same as the Creator being dependent on spacetime so much as his ability to willfully enter into it.

Then they say that maybe God is another word for the universe. But this pantheistic view is also not in keeping with the view of God as Creator. If God were the universe then we would be part of God's body, and we would also be part of God. And when the heat death comes, presumably the universe and God would be dying? This is just not the theistic view.

The theistic view is not that complicated. It is that God created the universe. That he set off the big bang, and that he will one day bring it to a close. The universe is just something he made, as are we within it, and none of us know the breadth of reality that exists outside the universe.

that's really more the agnostic view of things; your viewpoint is too secular and in your attempt to consolidate your christian identity with what you feel is a 'reasonable up-to-date view of reality' you wind up arbitrarily ejecting significant portions of the scripture.

i

Alyosha posted:

Many atheists think God is supposed to exist in space and time. But this is not what theists claim. They claim that God created space and time, not that he is part of it. God is extra-universal, although he can tamper with the universe as he wishes.

Sounds like they (you) are making a lot of presumptions and assertions about a bunch of things they (you)have no understanding of.

Alyosha posted:

The Christian view does have God present in all of our souls via the Holy Spirit;

The holy spirit isn't necessarily 'present' in our souls.. It is not even mentioned in Mark and it's basically just an invention of certain bible authors to describe God's influence on mankind..

Alyosha posted:

and, of course, God is believed to have once come to Earth as a human. But this is not the same as the Creator being dependent on spacetime so much as his ability to willfully enter into it.

'the creator?' 'spacetime?' what is this hippy shit? lol at you even having to try and say that God is not 'dependent' on space time. terrible gimmick, bro just leave it to EJK he at least knows what hes talking about.

Alyosha posted:

Then they say that maybe God is another word for the universe. But this pantheistic view is also not in keeping with the view of God as Creator. If God were the universe then we would be part of God's body, and we would also be part of God.

God is not some thing we can describe through the lens of science you dipshit. For you to say God is or isn't part of 'the universe' you would have to define those things which is beyond mortal capabilites.

Alyosha posted:

And when the heat death comes, presumably the universe and God would be dying? This is just not the theistic view.

... I don't see what lungfishes parachute account has to do with theology...

Alyosha posted:

The theistic view is not that complicated. It is that God created the universe. That he set off the big bang, and that he will one day bring it to a close. The universe is just something he made, as are we within it, and none of us know the breadth of reality that exists outside the universe.

The theistic view is that the prevalent scientific theories of the last hundred years are correct but there's, like, more to it, man. Stop this awful gimmick yo. As a former Christian I am offended.

Edited by EmanuelaBrolandi (Aug. 8, 2012 09:50:53)