#81
Post rating: ~

we left early when sunkara started holding court behind us at the after party



like gd bosses.

lemme see the good fem stuff too. also, sexual violence and neoliberalism or american power and declinist debate if you can see, please and thank you.

#82
Post rating: +
Hey Greg. I'm labor. Could you organize me?
#83
[account deactivated]
#84
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discipline posted:

there need to be female only / POC only spaces within leftist orgs imo



why

#85
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Because women and men are different
#86
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A lot of times having women and men together is like listening to sandstorm and sandstorm air horn remix at the same time. the regular sandstorm gets drowned out.
#87
Post rating: +

Keven posted:

A lot of times having women and men together is like listening to sandstorm and sandstorm air horn remix at the same time. the regular sandstorm gets drowned out.



Wanna know what a party/organization with Women's working groups within it sounds like? http://wheelweb.net/darudeairhornreggaeton.mp3

#88
Post rating: ~

Keven posted:

A lot of times having women and men together is like listening to sandstorm and sandstorm air horn remix at the same time. the regular sandstorm gets drowned out.



so if the women are given a separate "safe group" away from the empowered men who control the group theyll be able to participate more fully?

#89
Post rating: +
they'll wear those yoga pants probably fk i want to be thre
#90
Mike Nelson here.
Post rating: +
i don't talk to women or minorities in real life because i'm trying to respect their autonomy.
#91
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VoxNihili posted:

so if the women are given a separate "safe group" away from the empowered men who control the group theyll be able to participate more fully?



cos they ask for them to caucus you prat

#92
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if loud or aggressive people are dominating it sounds like a procedural problem that could be addressed with different rules of order
#93
Kurdt
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if you dont have balls enough to make yourself heard at a party meeting how are you ever going to smash the state
#94
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Smash my balls dude.
#95
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the problem with factions or what have you is basically the structural problem of countercurrents or digressions of liberatory politics. like, 'in this moment, unity is important and the (perhaps conspiratorial) ideas represented by the faction have been rejected democratically, must be liquidated into the general class struggle line of the party'. but how are you going to liquidate the principle of female liberation? or national liberation?



holding the issue of national liberation aside for now, the basic reproduction of classes and therefore really-existing capitalism are intrinsically linked to the role of women in society, ie. they fill the roll of mothers and caretakers, and are ascribed a symbolic role as emotional nurturer. some waged labor is traditionally-female and is connected to emotional & affective care. much of what women do around the world is unwaged: domestic work, caretaking, mediating affect, things that sustain the normal functioning of the labor process

But you cannot draw the masses into politics without drawing in the women as well. For under capitalism the female half of the human race is doubly oppressed. The working woman and the peasant woman are oppressed by capital, but over and above that, even in the most democratic of the bourgeois republics, they remain, firstly, deprived of some rights because the law does not give them equality with men; and secondly—and this is the main thing—they remain in household bondage", they continue to be “household slaves", for they are overburdened with the drudgery of the most squalid, backbreaking and stultifying toil in the kitchen and the family household.



http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1921/mar/04.htm

where capitalism has restored itself has been the site of the most violent reprisals against women, ie. in the USSR & former socialist states in Eastern Europe, millions of women were trafficked, domestic violence exploded, prostitution and freely-available pornography ripped through society. sexual harassment in the workplace is treated as completely natural and correct (including a case where a judge deemed it 'necessary for humanity to survive'), and domestic abuse has been normalized.

We want women workers to achieve equality with men workers not only in law, but in life as well. For this, it is essential that women workers take an ever increasing part in the administration of public enterprises and in the administration of the state.

By engaging in the work of administration women will learn quickly and they will catch up with the men.

Therefore, elect more women workers, both Communist and non-Party, to the Soviet. If she is only an honest woman worker who is capable of managing work sensibly and conscientiously, it makes no difference if she is not a member of the Party--elect her to the Moscow Soviet.

Let there be more women workers in the Moscow Soviet! Let the Moscow proletariat show that it is prepared to do and is doing everything for the fight to victory, for the fight against the old inequality, against the old, bourgeois, humiliation of women!

The proletariat cannot achieve complete freedom, unless it achieves complete freedom for women.



http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/feb/21.htm

the task of women's liberation isn't an individual task -- electing *individuals* is an exercise in identity voodoo-- but a popular, class-based task which takes on social character. thus that means mass-based groups necessarily engaging in different aspects of the class struggle, intellectuals, cleaners, engineers, women, nationalities, etc. most importantly, as Lenin says, it is a matter of communist political principle to have women elected directly to the levers of power in order to fight capitalist reproduction and restoration. what is clearly necessary here is coordinated advancement of women, by women (just like of workers, by workers), mediated through the Party.

Edited by Crow ()

#96
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VoxNihili posted:

if loud or aggressive people are dominating it sounds like a procedural problem that could be addressed with different rules of order



ah, a problem of procedure, what are you in the SWP

#97
Post rating: ~

VoxNihili posted:

if loud or aggressive people are dominating it sounds like a procedural problem that could be addressed with different rules of order



i don't think they do it because they are timid little mouses

i mean fucking hell like every single faction has a caucus and although i am not saying a collective half of the species are "another faction" but the entire event is for a similar aim: lets make sure our aims get sorted so petty shit that comes out in the group dynamic of events doesn't overcome it

to some extent that might be "we might get shouted down on these points cos were ladies" but its far more organic then just that single point and is likely to more be "we want feminist politics within the group to be about what we want it to be about so were gonna decide what we want it to be about X and then get it sorted rather then have the discussion with everyone who we don't give a fuck about"

plus "fixing the rules" if their is a problem with power politics within a group is absolute nonsense, fixing a meeting is easy as fuck

Edited by SovietFriends ()

#98
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: +

VoxNihili posted:

discipline posted:

there need to be female only / POC only spaces within leftist orgs imo

why



because its not a legitimate leftist organization until everyone has differentiated themselves from one another down to the subatomic level and then splits that last indivisible part initiating a chain reaction of cataclysmic neutron bombardment that scatters them all across the upper atmosphere and leaves the political territory completely inhospitable to human life for multiple generations afterwards

#99
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: ~
the only safe spaces that can ever exist are the ones that lie directly above the graves of Capitalism
#100
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: +
you wanna know what a wounded animal does when it finds a "safe space"? it stays there, forever, helplessly bleeding out until it dies

creating Safe Spaces for people is literally the exact opposite of Radicalization
#101
Post rating: ~

Superabound posted:

you wanna know what a wounded animal does when it finds a "safe space"? it stays there, forever, helplessly bleeding out until it dies

creating Safe Spaces for people is literally the exact opposite of Radicalization



extra points for the bleeding animal reference.

meanwhile in a land down undah
http://hmaustralasiaopenletter.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/hm2013/

#102
penitent
Post rating: ~
q. how did capital fare in your Confrontation
#103
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: ~
SorryBart, please promise me you wont stop posting here until the secreting tumor of Liberalism has been successfully excised from your core
#104
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Superabound posted:

SorryBart, please promise me you wont stop posting here until the secreting tumor of Liberalism has been successfully excised from your core



don't reach out of the darkness to me, little boy

#105
Unapologetic Opponent of Rape
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SariBari posted:

Superabound posted:

SorryBart, please promise me you wont stop posting here until the secreting tumor of Liberalism has been successfully excised from your core

don't reach out of the darkness to me, little boy

Hey, I'm the little boy around these parts, don't go handing out my gimmick to some random putz.

#106
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Hy, I'm the little boy around these parts *explodes, immolating entire thread*
#107
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Eh, Lets Be Honest. You're the Fat Man.
#108
Post rating: +

discipline posted:

there need to be female only / POC only spaces within leftist orgs imo



#109
Post rating: +
aussie rebel socialism.gif
#110
Post rating: ~

SariBari posted:

Superabound posted:
you wanna know what a wounded animal does when it finds a "safe space"? it stays there, forever, helplessly bleeding out until it dies

creating Safe Spaces for people is literally the exact opposite of Radicalization


extra points for the bleeding animal reference.

meanwhile in a land down undah
http://hmaustralasiaopenletter.wordpress.com/2013/04/24/hm2013/



On the one hand this is noble and the right thing to do and principled on everything. On the other hand, the Australian left fracturing and self-sabotaging over the actions of some stupid Pommy git shows a real masturbatory self-indulgence and refusal to engage with issues facing contemporary Australians, especially when shit is about to Get Real Yo when Abbott is soon elected.

I’m not trying to dismiss the importance of this case or the wider issues of misogyny and sexism amongst leftist but this isn’t our battle to fight in this country when there are plenty of people being raped already who have nothing to do with internecine leftist antagonisms in that shitty old Grey hellhole on the other side of the world.

Internationalism, yeah sure, but you don’t see the Naxalites tearing themselves apart over arguments between McCaine and Grover Furr.

#111
[account deactivated]
#112
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: ~

SariBari posted:

Superabound posted:

SorryBart, please promise me you wont stop posting here until the secreting tumor of Liberalism has been successfully excised from your core

don't reach out of the darkness to me, little boy



belittling, marginalizing, AND sexist. your power grows, young padawan

#113
Post rating: ~

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

I’m not trying to dismiss the importance of this case or the wider issues of misogyny and sexism amongst leftist but this isn’t our battle to fight in this country



really convincing qualifier you preface with while assuring me there is no room for a display of solidarity with women from those who claim to be thinking people. it must be true because there is an election on; there is no room to demand better. i mean, what is the worst that could happen if the event's organizers got fully behind this? but you're right, there is too much to be lost esp for orgs who got it goin like dis

zzone bureau chief for swp affairs, SovietFriends:

"at the same time what has survived is the most embarrassing construct ever seen at the leadership of even the trot first world left

marxism this year is gonna be confusing as fuck as we wait for probs the worst ever formed split to just slowly sink taking entire slices of the left with it"



truly, there is strength in this union.

#114
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Of course there is room for a display of solidarity with women, just not this particular one.
#115
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Look I’m not trying to be a dickhead, and I know I’m just peanut-gallerying this thing for the most part but if you’re a POC or non-white/bougie person who is sympathetic or interested in leftist organizations on campus or in the workplace w/r/t addressing the problems in your community, you’re probably going to be pretty alienated by them spending so much time on party politics* in fucking Britain of all places..

*Which is what this is, let us not forget….the entire reason that this is the Rape Heard Around the World is because people can use it to wax lyrical about their pet ideas on democratic centralism or identity politics or privilege or still-smouldering resentment about a 30 year old argument in a student bar.

Edited by Ironicwarcriminal ()

#116
Not Your S.H.I.E.L.D.
Post rating: +
the first thing anyone should ask themselves upon throwing themselves fully into the 150 year old struggle against capitalist oppression is "what can i do to make this about ME?"
#117
Post rating: +
did dead ken make a post about how he's a leftist because he doesn't want to be around women because he's celibate yet?
#118
Post rating: ~

Ironicwarcriminal posted:

Look I’m not trying to be a dickhead, and I know I’m just peanut-gallerying this thing for the most part but if you’re a POC or non-white/bougie person who is sympathetic or interested in leftist organizations on campus or in the workplace w/r/t addressing the problems in your community, you’re probably going to be pretty alienated by them spending so much time on party politics* in fucking Britain of all places..

*Which is what this is, let us not forget….the entire reason that this is the Rape Heard Around the World is because people can use it to wax lyrical about their pet ideas on democratic centralism or identity politics or privilege or still-smouldering resentment about a 30 year old argument in a student bar.



that is kinda why its good to allow safe space etc

you make sure that their is some mechanism for cutting through the party wank and actually making sure organisations move past whatever is the standard rule of action at the time because as you rightly said the majority of splits in the left are down to internal inability for procedural nonsense to sort out and legitimize factional debates on the wider scale rather then anything ideology (their are ideological ones to but they are for sure secondry)

i do think its really weird to reify safe spaces beyond something that happens naturally and should just be accepted though, it makes it all a bit forced especially if its procedural creation by an organisational structure which undercuts its entire ability to work as what it should work as, instead their just needs to be a wider appreciation that identity politics caucuses play a very different role to say the anti-imperialist or a single issue caucus

#119
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Superabound posted:

the first thing anyone should ask themselves upon throwing themselves fully into the 150 year old struggle against capitalist oppression is "what can i do to make this about ME?"



the people who are not doing it because its a little bit about them are usually absolute nerdy messes

you want a bit of emotion and stake in the struggle even if their is a wider emphasis on the actual struggle itself

#120
penitent
Post rating: +

EmanuelaOrlandi posted:

did dead ken make a post about how he's a leftist because he doesn't want to be around women because he's celibate yet?



no but here it is