tentativelurkeraccount posted:
Goethestein posted:Leanne Staven, who had come for the protest, said that she had not come to the mosque to cause trouble but because "We need a voice". "I think white British who have any concerns feel we can't speak freely," she said.
good news: the ukip is here to 'hear' your 'concerns'
I was slightly puzzled by the early media reports of the appalling murder in Woolwich and particularly the wrangling over whether or not this could be called ‘a terrorist attack’. Does it make much difference? Two black savages hacked a man to death while shouting Allahu Akbar; that’s really all you need to know, isn’t it? In a sense calling it an act of terrorism somehow dignifies the barbarism. The media will now go into crowd-control mode and tell us how all Muslims are as shocked by this attack as are the rest of us and how Islam is a peaceable religion. No, it isn’t.
All credit to the woman police officer who shot the scumbags, although I suspect we will soon have an inquest into why it took the ‘boyden’ (that’s ghetto slang for police, apparently, dear readers) took 20 minutes to arrive.
cleanhands posted:congrats deadken http://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/creative-ways-to-mock-the-edl
if the Koch brothers are this keen to demonize the EDL then they must have something going for them.
Superabound posted:does tweeter have a "Reply All" function?
all replies are reply all by default
Goethestein posted:
yes surely correcting the working class on their misuse of grammar in the manner of a smarmy, smirking schoolboy will not further push them towards fascist demagogues.
Grammar correction and the Koch brothers, this is all the liberal elite has left to throw at those who ask what has been done to their country.
Like they are a fairly eclectic mix of part timers, football 'casual' (whatever the fuck that means post ecstasy) and the entire spectrum of traditional fascist populists. It is only the part timers who can properly be called the 'white working class' in an actual wide sense.
SovietFriends posted:(whatever the fuck that means post ecstasy)
catchphrase
SovietFriends posted:I don't think your wrong but the EDL are not exactly the whole of the working class even the white working class and though its a bit daft to basically focus on playground bullying as a counter tactic the folks who we will be turned off are a fairly specific section of the EDL rather than a mass.
Like they are a fairly eclectic mix of part timers, football 'casual' (whatever the fuck that means post ecstasy) and the entire spectrum of traditional fascist populists. It is only the part timers who can properly be called the 'white working class' in an actual wide sense.
plus they've got one fuckin' catchy theme song!
Ironicwarcriminal posted:Goethestein posted:yes surely correcting the working class on their misuse of grammar in the manner of a smarmy, smirking schoolboy will not further push them towards fascist demagogues.
Grammar correction and the Koch brothers, this is all the liberal elite has left to throw at those who ask what has been done to their country.
by characterizing them as dumb victims of a fate they are - sigh! - too uneducated to understand you're denying them the agency to hate nonwhites on their own initiative. you're claiming they burn mosques and kick paki heads in because their IQ is too low and they just can't grasp capital's web and the way the wealthy sell them out. everything is dollars and cents, people below a certain income bracket do not have the capacity to make independent judgements about the world and the beardy brown people who offend them in it. its u, u are the smarmy liberal
littlegreenpills posted:Ironicwarcriminal posted:Goethestein posted:yes surely correcting the working class on their misuse of grammar in the manner of a smarmy, smirking schoolboy will not further push them towards fascist demagogues.
Grammar correction and the Koch brothers, this is all the liberal elite has left to throw at those who ask what has been done to their country.by characterizing them as dumb victims of a fate they are - sigh! - too uneducated to understand you're denying them the agency to hate nonwhites on their own initiative. you're claiming they burn mosques and kick paki heads in because their IQ is too low and they just can't grasp capital's web and the way the wealthy sell them out. everything is dollars and cents, people below a certain income bracket do not have the capacity to make independent judgements about the world and the beardy brown people who offend them in it. its u, u are the smarmy liberal
and he's right
littlegreenpills posted:Ironicwarcriminal posted:
Goethestein posted:
yes surely correcting the working class on their misuse of grammar in the manner of a smarmy, smirking schoolboy will not further push them towards fascist demagogues.
Grammar correction and the Koch brothers, this is all the liberal elite has left to throw at those who ask what has been done to their country.
by characterizing them as dumb victims of a fate they are - sigh! - too uneducated to understand you're denying them the agency to hate nonwhites on their own initiative. you're claiming they burn mosques and kick paki heads in because their IQ is too low and they just can't grasp capital's web and the way the wealthy sell them out. everything is dollars and cents, people below a certain income bracket do not have the capacity to make independent judgements about the world and the beardy brown people who offend them in it. its u, u are the smarmy liberal
what? who is saying they are dumb? they are doing what is best for them in their social location: Revolting against liberal, empty, multiculti nihilism by rediscovering the purpose and vigour of fraternal bonds forged through violence and solidarity against a common enemy
how is that 'dumb', they look like they're having a whale of a time. Seriously i wish people would have a bit more of an empathetic outlook on what various groups find meaningful.
Ironicwarcriminal posted:what? who is saying they are dumb? they are doing what is best for them in their social location: Revolting against liberal, empty, multiculti nihilism by rediscovering the purpose and vigour of fraternal bonds forged through violence and solidarity against a common enemy
how is that 'dumb', they look like they're having a whale of a time. Seriously i wish people would have a bit more of an empathetic outlook on what various groups find meaningful.
again its easy to act as if your talking about a large slice of even the white working class when realistically your talking about a sliver but you are right and this is why the EDL is worrying, because this is the same structure that the NF were able to create though the BNP were not
the size of the organisations is completely different because A) the working class has utterly changed B) the ability for racism to be utilised has been undercut C) the specific way multiculturalism has turned out has meant the reaction to work had to be specific not broad.
SovietFriends posted:Ironicwarcriminal posted:
what? who is saying they are dumb? they are doing what is best for them in their social location: Revolting against liberal, empty, multiculti nihilism by rediscovering the purpose and vigour of fraternal bonds forged through violence and solidarity against a common enemy
how is that 'dumb', they look like they're having a whale of a time. Seriously i wish people would have a bit more of an empathetic outlook on what various groups find meaningful.
again its easy to act as if your talking about a large slice of even the white working class when realistically your talking about a sliver but you are right and this is why the EDL is worrying, because this is the same structure that the NF were able to create though the BNP were not
the size of the organisations is completely different because A) the working class has utterly changed B) the ability for racism to be utilised has been undercut C) the specific way multiculturalism has turned out has meant the reaction to work had to be specific not broad.
yeah i do realize this is a small part of the working class, and that sympathies for the EDL are limited.
I'm intruiged though by your point (C) there, what do you mean the way multiculturalism has turned out? Indeed do you know of any useful analysis of modern multiculturalism that goes deeper than the stupid EDL (or Guardian) narratives?
I just find it increasingly hard to envision a European future that won't involve communal violence or some forms of apartheid and i'm worried it's making me into a fascist.
Ironicwarcriminal posted:yeah i do realize this is a small part of the working class, and that sympathies for the EDL are limited.
I'm intruiged though by your point (C) there, what do you mean the way multiculturalism has turned out? Indeed do you know of any useful analysis of modern multiculturalism that goes deeper than the stupid EDL (or Guardian) narratives?
I just find it increasingly hard to envision a European future that won't involve communal violence or some forms of apartheid and i'm worried it's making me into a fascist.
you for sure shouldn't become a fascist
and the specific way multiculturalism has turned out has to do with the massive shift away from fascism as a reaction and to a type of racism almost completely curtailed by the imperialist aims of the UK re: the middle east
they have had to be completely specific in the way they bring themselves across despite the fact that no black person would ever be safe at an EDL demo because apart from a tiny faction most of the 'traditional' facists form its core
i have no idea about theorists of multiculturalism as well but i was brought up in a depressed northern town with a significant muslim minority so it was kind of the heartland of where the contradictions between communities were meant to flourish
despite that it was always the people a few towns away (which were always mostly white) who were the massive racists and i honestly have found that integration works rapidly quickly when people just talk to each other, especially among working class people, though taking that position to some extent rests on the fact that racism in terms of language was fairly virulent but was always about ego or as the first term of abuse rather then anything deeper
that leads me to say that most of the positions on problems in multiculturalism are a bit of a sham built from ridiculous interpretations from the outside which seem to treat the conservative narrative as the working class one when instead solidarity comes fairly easy as long as you can accept people calling a corner shop a paki shop (temporarily)
'crisis' like the one around woolich do change this but it seems temporary and honestly the majority of mobilizations have been fascists and a few part timers, after this weekend I am not sure they are going to be able to sustain it especially if we get a good counter demo turnout
it is not as if working class communities are at each others throats their is just a general lack of integration among minority communities which regularly explodes into contradictions against state structures.
reactions then occur on two levels: rise of working class reactionary views in their electoral politics and the proliferation of small but violent reactionary right wing organisations.
neither is going to start a racewar and if either spirals it will likely be against the state rather with alliances forming around that then against each other (see northern ireland).
basically its easy to overplay the problem by trying to somehow accommodate the daft narratives that capitalist politics overlays over the above two reactions and reifies into something massive when its a bit more subtle and piece by piece.
cleanhands posted:congrats deadken http://www.buzzfeed.com/lukelewis/creative-ways-to-mock-the-edl
lol a bunch of people posted that on my facebook being all BET U DON'T HATE BUZZFEED NOW HUH + im like yeah i love it when my Content is Monetised by other people
SovietFriends posted:reactions then occur on two levels: rise of working class reactionary views in their electoral politics and the proliferation of small but violent reactionary right wing organisations.
neither is going to start a racewar and if either spirals it will likely be against the state rather with alliances forming around that then against each other (see northern ireland).
basically its easy to overplay the problem by trying to somehow accommodate the daft narratives that capitalist politics overlays over the above two reactions and reifies into something massive when its a bit more subtle and piece by piece.
the entire liberal media in the united states just cannot get enough of "neo-Nazis"
daddyholes posted:the entire liberal media in the united states just cannot get enough of "neo-Nazis"
their are neonazis in the UK and they are violent and the edl has given them a space to act however they have mostly been deployed against the left through old neonazi structures and occasionally though seemingly random acts of post pub violence against non whites
they are heavily configured by the specific way multiculturalism exists as well and the way they spiral about in society exists alongside contradictions developing in multiculturalism even if its easy to overplay the exact extent to which alliances generate and vanish
despite the fact that their role can be easily overplayed (since even social democratic parties over here follow through with the majority of their public policies) they are still an enemy and deserve being reported on and confronted (which we are doing this saturday which is their second wave of protests though last weekend was just sad where i am, they got kettled in a pub beer garden)
therefore its probably good its being reported on over their however i doubt the subtly of any of the argument will come through if its just a wild misunderstanding of how radical right politics built from the street and reacting to systemic scale events actually works its through life (not least because neonazis can only be understood within it as the whole thing and a tiny faction kind of like a successful vanguard but without any of the organisational capability or direction)
the only point i was arguing against is the idea that multiculturalism is something that is displaying itself though inter community violence and that its going down a route where it will develop along those lines