Ironicwarcriminal posted:Yeah to march with the EDL protesting the disintegration of their country at the hands of UAF types.
You never responded to me when I tried to talk about this last time because I am pretty sure its just an off key mechanism for you rather then any serious point.
You are not wrong that a section of the working class march with the EDL though that is heavily configured by a lot of factors in particular that the EDL largely only get on board a very particular section of the white working class and they tend to be super part time. The thing I was referring to was the non-white working class who are a major slice of it. Though they occasionally turn out for anti-imperialist stuff if your build it right and its linked to real events it is anti fascist stuff where they come out in force.
Ironicwarcriminal posted:Translation: UAF are useful idiots who are supported by the Tory Party to enforce establishment limits on approved discourse against people who offer popular alternatives to unrestricted finance capitalism and social atomization.
I don't support the EDL, but their muckracking and shenanigans are the sounds of what the good Dr King called 'the voice of the voiceless'.
But in the interests of dialogue SovietFriends, could you outline a scenario (not a revolutionary platitude) where multiculturalism and mass immigration lead to a stable and prosperous Britain?
The uaf are that however to analyse them purely on those lines is idiotic especially once you are inside them they are so much more complex.
I should note as well that within the anti fascist movement uaf fucking hate me and i dont get along with them. They shopped in several of my comrades to the police which has resulted in charges etc. The point is that is not just because of their role which you are taking for the abstract but because of how that role actual exist in a non child analysis of the situation.
They are not the voice of the voiceless as well since their regards were taken into account constantly to reconfigure immigration into a racist fucking mess which please nobody.
They were the voice of a particular configuration of patriotism, anti immigration, post 90s football hooliganism, the failures of the bnp into a semi populist street movement which had the drive to be violent which served well to cover up their lousy numbers.
It is also a complete fallacy to say 'mass immigration' and 'multiculturalism' has failed when what has actually failed is successful integration of non-white poor communities alongside white poor communities. Because of this you get areas (like Wigan) which are white enclaves next to heavily asian areas (like Bolton) which are profoundly racist as they get stereotype after stereotype thrown at them but they never actually meet anyone who is asian. Combined with that is a daftly awful state and media which refuse to discuss integration in a none racist way (because ofc discussions need to be had about how to fix contradictions that have come out of the creation of ghettos + employment and education rifts).
This is a excellent place for reactionary potions on immigration to flow and the tiny anti social vestiges of the far right have been able to capitalize on that however the specific nature of the problems means they have not been able to produce anything large with the exception of the edl because it could latch onto a particular sentiment produced by the war.
This all exists parallel rather then part of if Britain is going to become stable and prosperous since it already is stable and its prosperity is in no way hampered by working class (mass) immigration. The only point of instability are these mellow but always discussed problems with multiculturalism which in my experience cold be solved pretty much with time + focused integration + increased stability in the Asian and White working class re: employment.
deadken posted:i find it funny that every mancunian i meet is near-psychotically passionate about manchester and doesn't shut up about how great it is whereas brummies are perfectly happy to admit that they live in a shithole, considering the two cities have about the same level of relevance ie none
industrialization, music, socialism, kings of the north, and the attitude are pretty much it tbh
it is very dirty though and their are no job but the grimness is part of its majesty
SovietFriends posted:also fuck wigan
donk comes from wigan
wigan had the pier but parallel to it was the illegal rave scene accross the entire of northern towns which although starting to latch onto early transformation of drum and base had heavy donk crowds on it as well
SovietFriends posted:You are not wrong that a section of the working class march with the EDL though that is heavily configured by a lot of factors in particular that the EDL largely only get on board a very particular section of the white working class and they tend to be super part time.
thats a pretty neat rhetorical obfuscation technique
Dusz posted:thats a pretty neat rhetorical obfuscation technique
the edl exist as an alliance between three main forces: football hooliganism, the far fright and a section of the white working class who turn up on an ad hoc basis.
it isn't an obfuscation technique its just a point that to call the edl a representation of the white working class misses how they actually specifically interact with the edl.
one of the major changes today is that the edl have lost alot of flavour with the football hooligans plus the part timers in the white working class who came out to local demonstrations have either got more involved or vanished
Ironicwarcriminal posted:deadken posted:birmingham is the, uh, the melbourne of britain
Well Melbourne has 4 million people and like skyscrapers and a river and beaches and stuff. It's always seemed incredible to me that in a country as crowded and populous and industrialized as Britain, they couldn't build a second city with any sort of grandeur or power. I get that London is so dominant that it has historically sucked up all the development and prestige, but between the jet-setters and asylum seekers and the City it's not even British anymore. And you can't even run away and reinvent yourself like you could in a big country because everywhere you go is filled with the same tabloids, the same pinched little houses, grey skies and despair-masquerading-as-eccentricity. Paul Theroux described it as 'less like a nation than a small parish' but really it's more like 60 million people being born into life sentences in a medium security prison but with worse food and maybe a better rec room so you can at least put a donk on your misery.
there's edinburgh i guess
deadken posted:if you're in britain and you want to run away and reinvent yourself you can hop on a train and there's a whole continent full of divergent decaying cultures and grand decaying cities and languages that grow steadily more consonantal the further east you go. australia meanwhile is ringed by miles of shark-infested ocean and beyond that the glamour and sophistication of bali
a) nice eurocentrism
b) 'britain is cool because it's easy to leave and go to other countries' will never stop being the worlds most hilarious nationalist boast.
c) sharks are cool and being scared of the ocean is pure gooneology i claim
SovietFriends posted:Manchester is the best city in the world.
deadken posted:uaf-style antifascism is really just a foil for the wider liberal racism of capitalist societies
This is such a daft over philosophical point about what the uaf are and what they represent that it completely misses what occurred over last weekend with the style of protest that the edl attempted to do.
They exist as a coalition of various forces on the left including social democratic parties which sit alongside the more militant sections of the anti fascist movement which is focused around anarchist and the younger (largely more part time) left.
By and large they are led by the active sections of the trade unions, the swp and the broad left labour. Due to the particular configuration of lee rigbys death alongside this leadership they have been unable to properly deal with their opposition to the edl when they are not being openly 'disrespectful' of the standard narrative that exists around the army.
Because of this on a region by region basis balance of forces within uaf have approached the problems in different ways but in every case we were unable to produce a satisfactory answer because of the particular configuration of uaf.
Furthermore the more militant section of the movement were unable to get numbers out because the plan of the edl itself was difficult to confront. Furthermore the debate within uaf on a local level really hallowed passion. Especially since the weekend before had been far more sparky where everyone got to reuse structures for confrontation which had been dormant since the edl slowed down.
This is what produced this daft show in the worlds most fabulous city which is not helped by the fact that the cenotaph is in a none public area (next to town hall off where the shops are and not on any key routes especially on a sunny day) and furthermore which has a heavily loyalist swp branch (who is pushing a 'respectful' reaction and is heavy on building relationships) plus a strong left labour movement including the labour party who would have made a compromise like this easy to take.
That is the reality of uaf and that is the reality they represent. I get what you are hinting at but its such a smarmy academic point which borders on the useless for analyzing how all this actually works in real life. For sure what you are saying can help us understand why anti fascist activity has been able to become 'mainstream' within liberal society and why it appears in an 'apolitical' form but if we reduce it to an ideological point separate from the movement as a reality it misses the real vitality of marxist analysis of ideology.
ken you just got ethered
SovietFriends posted:Ironicwarcriminal posted:
Yeah to march with the EDL protesting the disintegration of their country at the hands of UAF types.
You never responded to me when I tried to talk about this last time because I am pretty sure its just an off key mechanism for you rather then any serious point.
You are not wrong that a section of the working class march with the EDL though that is heavily configured by a lot of factors in particular that the EDL largely only get on board a very particular section of the white working class and they tend to be super part time. The thing I was referring to was the non-white working class who are a major slice of it. Though they occasionally turn out for anti-imperialist stuff if your build it right and its linked to real events it is anti fascist stuff where they come out in force.
Ironicwarcriminal posted:
Translation: UAF are useful idiots who are supported by the Tory Party to enforce establishment limits on approved discourse against people who offer popular alternatives to unrestricted finance capitalism and social atomization.
I don't support the EDL, but their muckracking and shenanigans are the sounds of what the good Dr King called 'the voice of the voiceless'.
But in the interests of dialogue SovietFriends, could you outline a scenario (not a revolutionary platitude) where multiculturalism and mass immigration lead to a stable and prosperous Britain?
The uaf are that however to analyse them purely on those lines is idiotic especially once you are inside them they are so much more complex.
I should note as well that within the anti fascist movement uaf fucking hate me and i dont get along with them. They shopped in several of my comrades to the police which has resulted in charges etc. The point is that is not just because of their role which you are taking for the abstract but because of how that role actual exist in a non child analysis of the situation.
They are not the voice of the voiceless as well since their regards were taken into account constantly to reconfigure immigration into a racist fucking mess which please nobody.
They were the voice of a particular configuration of patriotism, anti immigration, post 90s football hooliganism, the failures of the bnp into a semi populist street movement which had the drive to be violent which served well to cover up their lousy numbers.
It is also a complete fallacy to say 'mass immigration' and 'multiculturalism' has failed when what has actually failed is successful integration of non-white poor communities alongside white poor communities. Because of this you get areas (like Wigan) which are white enclaves next to heavily asian areas (like Bolton) which are profoundly racist as they get stereotype after stereotype thrown at them but they never actually meet anyone who is asian. Combined with that is a daftly awful state and media which refuse to discuss integration in a none racist way (because ofc discussions need to be had about how to fix contradictions that have come out of the creation of ghettos + employment and education rifts).
This is a excellent place for reactionary potions on immigration to flow and the tiny anti social vestiges of the far right have been able to capitalize on that however the specific nature of the problems means they have not been able to produce anything large with the exception of the edl because it could latch onto a particular sentiment produced by the war.
This all exists parallel rather then part of if Britain is going to become stable and prosperous since it already is stable and its prosperity is in no way hampered by working class (mass) immigration. The only point of instability are these mellow but always discussed problems with multiculturalism which in my experience cold be solved pretty much with time + focused integration + increased stability in the Asian and White working class re: employment.
How can you say that it's stability is not affected by mass immigration. In something like a decade, Norfolk's vegetable fields are now almost entirely filled by Eastern Europeans and when residents of the area (like that woman from Boston on question time) raise their concerns they're called bigots by a wealthy liberal metropolitan class to whom immigration means nannies, cuisine and listening to Tricky at their second home in dorset.
It is also a complete fallacy to say 'mass immigration' and 'multiculturalism' has failed when what has actually failed is successful integration of non-white poor communities alongside white poor communities.
Just like in France, Sweden, the Netherlands......how do you propose to integrate them? Sweden doesn't even have a real colonial history and have been rather accommodating and they're still seeing riots and segregation. Of course the rioters have legitimate greivances but does it not seem understandable that a certain section of the community has come to the conclusion that it's just not going to work and that complex social problems might be easy to solve without constantly adding more destabilization?
This seems weaselly, if there wasn't mass immigration there wouldn't be such stark divisions and failures of integration. There is a lot of evasion here to get around the issue that large scale immigration is simply not in the interests of the British working class. If it is then please outline why. More so for the working classes, i'm already sold...
I absolutely LOVE that little Burmese restaurant down the road
Ironicwarcriminal posted:Just like in France, Sweden, the Netherlands......how do you propose to integrate them? Sweden doesn't even have a real colonial history and have been rather accommodating and they're still seeing riots and segregation. Of course the rioters have legitimate greivances but does it not seem understandable that a certain section of the community has come to the conclusion that it's just not going to work and that complex social problems might be easy to solve without constantly adding more destabilization?
This seems weaselly, if there wasn't mass immigration there wouldn't be such stark divisions and failures of integration. There is a lot of evasion here to get around the issue that large scale immigration is simply not in the interests of the British working class. If it is then please outline why. More so for the working classes, i'm already sold...
I absolutely LOVE that little Burmese restaurant down the road
yea, ordinary people are set up to cannibalise each other for the fun + profit of elites & its horrible; but the task of internet revolutionaries is how to turn this anger into revolutionary violence, not triggering liberals
xipe posted:yea, ordinary people are set up to cannibalise each other for the fun + profit of elites & its horrible; but the task of internet revolutionaries is how to turn this anger into revolutionary violence, not triggering liberals
the task of internet revolutionaries is to ironically discuss revolution from behind their gen.9 iPad. then when they get a good white man's job at age ~30, to myesteriously decide that revolution "just isnt going to happen anyway"
Ironicwarcriminal posted:fwiw it seems that Canada and New Zealand are the ones that do multiculturalism the best.
because their culture was not worth saving haha
NoFreeWill posted:Ironicwarcriminal posted:
fwiw it seems that Canada and New Zealand are the ones that do multiculturalism the best.
because their culture was not worth saving haha
True from a certain viewpoint: 'canadian' and 'new zealander' as identities are younger and more fluid than the ethnicity/language based states of Europe. An Arab can become Canadian more easily than they can become French, a Turk can become Australian more easily than he can become German.
With European immigration tensions i guess the socialists will try and organize, the social democrats will try and 'educate the population and the technocrats will try and Manage it. What happens if they fail? Which they probably will.
Ironicwarcriminal posted:How can you say that it's stability is not affected by mass immigration. In something like a decade, Norfolk's vegetable fields are now almost entirely filled by Eastern Europeans and when residents of the area (like that woman from Boston on question time) raise their concerns they're called bigots by a wealthy liberal metropolitan class to whom immigration means nannies, cuisine and listening to Tricky at their second home in dorset.
they are really not, they are widely accepted as long as they exist only at a certain level and politicians fall hand over foot to try to minimize the problem by attacking the living standards of immigrants, the political correct narrative doesnt actually exist
furthermore how is that undermining stability? its not as if the police need to be called except when this erupts into an Asian bloke being stabbed which is not occurring on scale what you would expect in a world where right wing reactionaries are getting links to the white working class who are being fed a siege mentality but it certainly isn't inter communal struggle level by any stretch either
on the flip side when people actually live in areas where their are immigrants as well tension vanishes really fucking quickly except with the odd nazi hero meaning it both strengthens the problem in the paragraph above while also stopping it developing
Ironicwarcriminal posted:Just like in France, Sweden, the Netherlands......how do you propose to integrate them? Sweden doesn't even have a real colonial history and have been rather accommodating and they're still seeing riots and segregation. Of course the rioters have legitimate greivances but does it not seem understandable that a certain section of the community has come to the conclusion that it's just not going to work and that complex social problems might be easy to solve without constantly adding more destabilization?
This seems weaselly, if there wasn't mass immigration there wouldn't be such stark divisions and failures of integration. There is a lot of evasion here to get around the issue that large scale immigration is simply not in the interests of the British working class. If it is then please outline why. More so for the working classes, i'm already sold...
I absolutely LOVE that little Burmese restaurant down the road
i think your being unfair to say that mass immigration has been bad for the working class, it has just supplemented the mess which exists as the working class in 'post-industrial countries' however it hasn't increased competition for jobs as that has also been essential for capital accumulation in particular at a local level
adding that to my experience growing up in Bolton (and the wider North West) and seeing racism develop in a city which during full employment had been a no nazi zone (even as a kid tearing down bnp posters was a game for coke bottle sweets) i think integration could hopefully occur if it ever actually does occur rather then ghettoisation because that plus worsening access to subsidies basically seems to drive it, the first should come first as in my experience it gets rid of the first point of racism but i am not sure how long second would take to develop and fix itself and i think the recent experience in sweden shows this as it was ghettoisation which drove it
on the same level I am not sure I could properly discuss integration in other European states without just assuming that my knowledge of how it actually works fits everywhere (which i hope it does but other countries dont even always buy their houses so what the fuck do i know)
SovietFriends posted:i think the recent experience in sweden shows this as it was ghettoisation which drove it
Stockholm's suburbs are far from ghettos. It was police violence that drove it, many of the rioters were white, and most of the rioting was just for youthful catharsis not economic hardship or racial violence. Once Finnish immigrants were the poorest and most criminal, then Yugos and so on, and with every one flowed another wave of minor reaction, but they were ultimately integrated. There's no reason to think Muslim immigrants won't too.
This stupid pseudo-sociological narrative of animalizing people and calling it 'structural analysis' is the worst thing to happen to politics and shows how most "intellects" involved, left or right, are just dilettantes unconscious that they're pouring their bourgie disgust and contempt for people in their cartoon politics. It's the same with deluded vanguardists and other unconscious supremacists.
"Oh the dirty savage poors are acting wild because there's not enough bread and coins, throw some at them before they rob and burn our Burberry stores."
People strike and protest when they're economically discontent and segregated, they act violent when there's violence against them. Just ask the rioters themselves and don't gobble up this sort of trash punditry passing as nuanced structural analysis.
Ooh poor little old me didn't know that the sweaty brainless masses are sophisticated enough to protest to voice their concerns and aren't just animals who go berserk when there's shortage? That's not what my hip academic reading tells me!
Cheers.
COINTELBRO posted:SovietFriends posted:i think the recent experience in sweden shows this as it was ghettoisation which drove it
Stockholm's suburbs are far from ghettos. It was police violence that drove it, many of the rioters were white, and most of the rioting was just for youthful catharsis not economic hardship or racial violence. Once Finnish immigrants were the poorest and most criminal, then Yugos and so on, and with every one flowed another wave of minor reaction, but they were ultimately integrated. There's no reason to think Muslim immigrants won't too.
This stupid pseudo-sociological narrative of animalizing people and calling it 'structural analysis' is the worst thing to happen to politics and shows how most "intellects" involved, left or right, are just dilettantes unconscious that they're pouring their bourgie disgust and contempt for people in their cartoon politics. It's the same with deluded vanguardists and other unconscious supremacists.
"Oh the dirty savage poors are acting wild because there's not enough bread and coins, throw some at them before they rob and burn our Burberry stores."
People strike and protest when they're economically discontent and segregated, they act violent when there's violence against them. Just ask the rioters themselves and don't gobble up this sort of trash punditry passing as nuanced structural analysis.
Ooh poor little old me didn't know that the sweaty brainless masses are sophisticated enough to protest to voice their concerns and aren't just animals who go berserk when there's shortage? That's not what my hip academic reading tells me!
Cheers.
it's liberalisms fault that they were rioting, too many handouts
cleanhands posted:the edl is barely a fascist organisation anyway who gives a fuck
tory backed 'antifascists' i guess
Opemipo Jaji with 'an unhealthy interest in little girls' will serve eight years before being considered for any parole
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/07/teenager-raqped-11-girl-life
lol britain
COINTELBRO posted:Stockholm's suburbs are far from ghettos. It was police violence that drove it, many of the rioters were white, and most of the rioting was just for youthful catharsis not economic hardship or racial violence. Once Finnish immigrants were the poorest and most criminal, then Yugos and so on, and with every one flowed another wave of minor reaction, but they were ultimately integrated. There's no reason to think Muslim immigrants won't too.
This stupid pseudo-sociological narrative of animalizing people and calling it 'structural analysis' is the worst thing to happen to politics and shows how most "intellects" involved, left or right, are just dilettantes unconscious that they're pouring their bourgie disgust and contempt for people in their cartoon politics. It's the same with deluded vanguardists and other unconscious supremacists.
"Oh the dirty savage poors are acting wild because there's not enough bread and coins, throw some at them before they rob and burn our Burberry stores."
People strike and protest when they're economically discontent and segregated, they act violent when there's violence against them. Just ask the rioters themselves and don't gobble up this sort of trash punditry passing as nuanced structural analysis.
Ooh poor little old me didn't know that the sweaty brainless masses are sophisticated enough to protest to voice their concerns and aren't just animals who go berserk when there's shortage? That's not what my hip academic reading tells me!
Cheers.
all my posts have been inferring that specificity is a necessary part of genuine structural analysis because structures by their nature are specific
due to that are you seriously so fucking stupid you think ghettoisation is a term which is that one dimensional or does you debating education only extend to the smug world of internet WELL ACTUALLY rubbish
cleanhands posted:the edl is barely a fascist organisation anyway who gives a fuck
they really are its just all constructed from the alliances that have been built in the far right for decades actually for once linking to a populist moment and allowing them to gain conditional support among the holy sections of society which they have been praying to get influence over for ages
it is in that alongside the specific role they have played in society where the point of fascism has exploded from and nowhere else
i think your being unfair to say that mass immigration has been bad for the working class, it has just supplemented the mess which exists as the working class in 'post-industrial countries' however it hasn't increased competition for jobs as that has also been essential for capital accumulation in particular at a local level
explain how large scale immigration to economically stressed regions is in the class interests of the workers already there plz. How has it possibly not increased competition for jobs, specifically unskilled or trade jobs?
SovietFriends posted:on the flip side when people actually live in areas where their are immigrants as well tension vanishes really fucking quickly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Defence_League
The EDL originated from a group known as the "United Peoples of Luton". This was a response to a demonstration, organised by al Muhajiroun, against the war in Afghanistan as the Royal Anglian Regiment marched through the town after a tour of duty in the Helmand province campaign[2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luton#20th_century
Since the 2011 census, Luton has become one of 3 towns in the United Kingdom to officially hold a white minority. It was announced in a report based on the census figures that along with Leicester and Slough, Luton was one of 3 towns outside of London where white Britons were minority, making up only 45% of Luton's population.
This survey examines the reasons for the rise in support for far-right parties from the public’s own perspective. Relatively little
primary research has previously been conducted on this subject, but what is already known is that the concentration of electoral support for the BNP has been in selected geographical areas and among particular types of voter. A 2006 survey of support for the BNP (ICM, 2006) focused
on Barking and Dagenham and Sandwell local authority areas, where the party broke through in the local council elections that year. The survey found BNP support to be higher in areas with high numbers of ethnic minorities (ethnic minorities comprise 15 per cent of the population of Barking and Dagenham and 20 per cent inSandwell, compared to eight per cent nationally)
Ironicwarcriminal posted:stating complete fallacies as facts doesn't really seem like great material analysis imho
i read stuff which was the complete opposite so will have to look into that
Ironicwarcriminal posted:explain how large scale immigration to economically stressed regions is in the class interests of the workers already there plz. How has it possibly not increased competition for jobs, specifically unskilled or trade jobs?
it has supplemented the destruction of low skilled jobs by increasing competition for what remains but alongside that mass immigration has created a plethora of new capital accumulation in the north which has allowed warehouses etc to still exist
i have never seen anything balancing the two against each other but this is literally the field i work in and have done for my entire adult life (which is also what has backed up what i thought was better evidence in the above reply as I have had discussions with people i work with exactly about this and the same story is said over and over again)
the wages and conditions have got worse but that has gone hand in hand with shifting changes in the entire labor market rather then the fact their are now a few more non English speakers applying for jobs however segregation has helped massively in keeping competition at bay