#121
Post rating: ~
Sure, or compassion as opposed to pity. I don't mean to put you down into a hole and say it sure does look dark down in that hole. Just saying i believe you, that's all.

You mentioned kids with schizophrenia -- can you talk a little more about that subject?
#122
Post rating: ~
Yeah I'm interested in that as well.
Do the parents, staff, program, or kids know they have schizophrenia, or are the parents just dumping in programs in order to get away from it all or what? Probably a difficult question to answer, but I'm genuinely curious. I can only imagine the parents are sort of manipulated into sending their kids there because they have tried drugs, therapy, etc., but the entire home situation remains highly stressful, etc.
Someone mentions one of these programs to them or they see an ad in a magazine, or whatever, and as soon as they make that call, the program administration comes out like fire ants to suck them in or whatever. My understanding is probably way off here, but it is just mind boggling that people think it is a good idea to send a schizophrenic child (or any child) to a de facto torture camp.
#123
Post rating: +

commodiusvicus posted:
Sure, or compassion as opposed to pity. I don't mean to put you down into a hole and say it sure does look dark down in that hole. Just saying i believe you, that's all.

You mentioned kids with schizophrenia -- can you talk a little more about that subject?



I think you missed his point. These laboratories for creating delinquent children and using the newest and most brutal forms of social control outside of the law are just the most offensive face of a totalizing system of bio-political control. We all experience this repression to varying degrees, and making him into an other, no matter how compassionate you feel it is, only reinforces the mystification of these facilities as serving a genuine purpose or being uniquely for "bad people".

If we have understanding, and use an analysis of these facilities to understand the wider social purpose they function as, only then can we actually do something beyond pity. Just as Marx looks at the most visible form of capitalism, the commodity, to pull off the veil of the whole system and understand the fundamental contradictions of capital itself, we can use the most severe and visible example of social control to reveal the fundamental meaning of social control that effects us all.

#124
Post rating: ~
I would be very interested in more info on how the work system functions. Work in the prison or in the asylum rarely turns a profit, it is mostly to instill workshop discipline (which then served as the model for public school). However proletarian discipline in the 1st world has changed quite a bit, I am curious if you think the effect of meaningless work is a progressive one (ie serving as a future model for the mass army of unemployed under neo-liberalism) or a regressive function (the christian work ethic which seems to be a big part of these facilities, at least on the surface, and a lack of new innovative measures for discipline and social control).

I'm also quite surprised time was so fluid, strict and arbitrary control of time, especially into measurements for efficient production, is the first and most important way of structuring society and exerting power. Do you have any thoughts?
#125
Post rating: ~
Third post DM, I loved your post on anthropology, I don't really have anything interesting to say about it at the moment because I'm still digesting it into a wider understanding of power and psychoanalysis, just like your awesome phenomenology posts which I decided to just sit back and absorb. But it has massive implications, I was disappointed with it being ignored on WDDP (I don't know why) and I hope you don't get discouraged to make awesome posts like that cause they are appreciated
#126
Post rating: ~
No, i don't think i missed the point. I don't think the nature of compassion, as i use the word here, allows for making anyone into an other. Pity means wanting oneself to be free from suffering -- something causes you to feel bad and you want the feeling to go away. Compassion means wanting all sentient beings to be free from suffering. I spent some time in the nut house when i was a teenager so i understand the point that we all experience the negative effects of various systems of control.
#127
Post rating: ~
Yeah but that's the response everyone who goes through a bad thing gets. Oh wow, I'm sorry. Is there anything I can do for you (as long as you don't actually answer yes)? Wow, that's terrible. Solidarity and compassion has it's place for someone who suffers trauma, especially if that's what the thread was about. I'm not saying you're a bad person. But I'm glad DM has moved beyond needing sympathy and trauma relief, because otherwise there's nothing we could do except perversely watch the thread and end up with a giant safe space where no discussion is allowed. This is a thread for discussion and meaningful societal analysis, not a therapeutic session among anonymous internet people.
#128
Post rating: ~

commodiusvicus posted:
You mentioned kids with schizophrenia -- can you talk a little more about that subject?



i tutored one of them in biology and he hugged me for treating him like he was normal. there are a lot of difficulties in discussing issues that are considered to be mental in nature, so there is a whole mess to get out of the way there before i would be able to talk about it much.

like i said, they were also kept in a different unit, so i only got to see them in certain contexts. they were also drugged up massively and indiscriminately. so yeah, we'd have to talk extensively about schizophrenia before i could really go into that.

i don't know about this site, but the page i'm linking looks like a decent intro (they are real people): http://www.schizophrenia.com/family/involuntaryb.htm

girdles_gone_wild posted:
Yeah I'm interested in that as well.
Do the parents, staff, program, or kids know they have schizophrenia, or are the parents just dumping in programs in order to get away from it all or what? Probably a difficult question to answer, but I'm genuinely curious. I can only imagine the parents are sort of manipulated into sending their kids there because they have tried drugs, therapy, etc., but the entire home situation remains highly stressful, etc.
Someone mentions one of these programs to them or they see an ad in a magazine, or whatever, and as soon as they make that call, the program administration comes out like fire ants to suck them in or whatever. My understanding is probably way off here, but it is just mind boggling that people think it is a good idea to send a schizophrenic child (or any child) to a de facto torture camp.



it's not just parents that place kids there. they end up in the street a lot (irrespective of age) because people suck

#129
Post rating: ~
I think what you were saying about 'what makes you think you shouldn't have gone to a place like that' makes sense. There's plenty of shit I got in trouble for with my parents and could've gotten into legal trouble for as a teenager that was pretty much 'normal teenager stuff' but my parents or the law, even with the best intentions, could have easily shipped me off without understanding what they were really doing
#130
Post rating: +
reminder that we are currently posting on a place where we have a separate subforum people are sent to for an unstated and indeterminate range of offenses and must conform to an also unstated standard before being approved for release into the general population
#131
Post rating: ~

EmanuelaOrlandi posted:
I think what you were saying about 'what makes you think you shouldn't have gone to a place like that' makes sense. There's plenty of shit I got in trouble for with my parents and could've gotten into legal trouble for as a teenager that was pretty much 'normal teenager stuff' but my parents or the law, even with the best intentions, could have easily shipped me off without understanding what they were really doing



Yeah, exactly. On the first page, I mentioned the threat of a place that at least seems worse. There's that threat of being torn out of a social context that pushes you to comply with it in spite of yourself. Leaving one voluntarily to be part of another is quite a bit different even if the way to get there and what it will look like still need to be worked out. Both are certainly still the outcome of struggle though.

#132
Post rating: ~

babyhueypnewton posted:
Yeah but that's the response everyone who goes through a bad thing gets. Oh wow, I'm sorry. Is there anything I can do for you (as long as you don't actually answer yes)? Wow, that's terrible. Solidarity and compassion has it's place for someone who suffers trauma, especially if that's what the thread was about. I'm not saying you're a bad person. But I'm glad DM has moved beyond needing sympathy and trauma relief, because otherwise there's nothing we could do except perversely watch the thread and end up with a giant safe space where no discussion is allowed. This is a thread for discussion and meaningful societal analysis, not a therapeutic session among anonymous internet people.



No it's still a safe space too unless you have a problem with that.

#133
Post rating: ~
k apparently you do so it is not a safe space for you until you get your shit together and fix the posts you just made so they can be clearly distinguished from the ones you made in that other thread
#134
Post rating: +
let me help really quick with some stuff i learned:

babyhueypnewton posted:
i already said you have no interest in being honest, now you're just pretending to be neutral and didn't mean anything bad. you could quite easily go look for yourself exactly what happened instead of making me try and summarize it so it can be twisted. the end result of all of this is you, future widow, and maybe a couple of other people don't like me because i don't actually want to discuss my life on here and don't care what you think of me. like i said, i guess our forums personalities will continue to clash until somebody gets banned.



The concept of a persona comes from the Latin word for a special type of mask used in theatrical performances. The masks had holes in the lips so the performer could speak through the mask. When you speak (or post), you do so with a certain degree of discretion about how you present yourself to others. That idea was very helpful to me as a way to re-conceptualize stuff so that I could actually communicate it to others. The way this functioned in the program and with my own posts in this thread for that matter is evident in this post.

You have shown your own life through the manner in which you've presented yourself. Confront it and fix the posts you made in this thread.

#135
Post rating: ~
my face is my mask
#136
Post rating: ~
oh he's apparently probated now. kinda awkward
#137
Post rating: ~
ok, so fwiw, here is what i would like to see to help create a safe space. it should not be mistaken for personal criticism, which i've already done:

i quoted the post i did because i was mad about it in the thread in which it was posted. my views on believing that people categorically have no interest in being honest have already been expressed in this thread. revising the posts in the form of ritualistic confessions out of fear of retribution is counterproductive and kinda creeps me out for reasons already explained, so revise them however you see fit to create a safe space. they are yours to alter

here is some reading for everyone as a reminder of all of the paid and unpaid work that women do besides prostitution: http://monthlyreview.org/2012/01/01/women-labor-and-capital-accumulation-in-asia

the guys weren't the only ones that had to shovel horse shit at the place i went to.

i support this sentiment as well if fw thinks it's possible to create a safe space here and worry less about going overboard:

futurewidow posted:

mistersix posted:

futurewidow posted:
i'm willing to admit i went overboard

don't because you didn't

I did though, I got angry and shit and in the original thread I was hounding the dude. it got me thinking and this is by no means a new question but it kind of relates with tink's theme of doing things in the Real World: do you ever boot someone effective and capable from a group because of their behaviour towards women? not just on some campus or student group but an organization vital to the people



#138
[account deactivated]
#139
Post rating: ~

discipline posted:
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/groundbreaking-settlement-in-splc-case-protects-incarcerated-children-from-abuse-i

Under the proposed decree, the MDOC will be required to remove boys from the GEO-operated prison and house them at a stand-alone facility governed by juvenile justice, rather than adult, standards. The MDOC will be required to provide them with a broad variety of rehabilitative services and strong protections from sexual abuse and violence. The decree also categorically bars the state from subjecting young people to solitary confinement – the first time a federal court has banned the barbaric practice of housing children in long-term isolation.




GEO is huge in the Real Prison industry. solitary confinement there is even worse and seriously fucks people up: http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/03/22/solitary-confinement-and-mental-illness-us-prisons

Solitary confinement is recognized as difficult to withstand; indeed, psychological stressors such as isolation can be as clinically distressing as physical torture., Nevertheless, U.S. prison officials have increasingly embraced a variant of solitary confinement to punish and control difficult or dangerous prisoners. Whether in the so-called supermax prisons that have proliferated over the past two decades or in segregation (i.e., locked-down housing) units within regular prisons, tens of thousands of prisoners spend years locked up 23 to 24 hours a day in small cells that frequently have solid steel doors. They live with extensive surveillance and security controls, the absence of ordinary social interaction, abnormal environmental stimuli, often only three to five hours a week of recreation alone in caged enclosures, and little, if any, educational, vocational, or other purposeful activities (i.e., programs). They are handcuffed and frequently shackled every time they leave their cells.,, The terms segregation, solitary confinement, and isolation will be used interchangeably to describe these conditions of confinement.

Isolation can be psychologically harmful to any prisoner, with the nature and severity of the impact depending on the individual, the duration, and particular conditions (e.g., access to natural light, books, or radio). Psychological effects can include anxiety, depression, anger, cognitive disturbances, perceptual distortions, obsessive thoughts, paranoia, and psychosis.

Edited by dm ()

#140
Post rating: ~
I'd probably reroll my character by bashing my own head in.
#141
Post rating: +
i printed out a bunch of stuff from the application to show friends and family now that i have it worked out now. i'm pretty sick of them not confronting this shit. the application is what was actually signed, even if they didn't fully know what's going on. i can show exactly how all the shit was authorized so hopefully they can get the fuck over themselves and admit that i was allowed to be put in a place that was actively avoiding oversight, controlling communication, explicitly acknowledging the use of physical force, the isolation unit, etc.

the only problems are the getting over themselves thing and not letting them project any discomfort they might have onto me. idk when i'm gonna talk to my parents about it though, but this is a lot better than the way shit has been

Edited by dm ()

#142
Post rating: ~
What result are you trying to get?
#143
Post rating: ~
good luck dude!
#144
Post rating: ~

NounsareVerbs posted:
What result are you trying to get?



i don't even give a shit! it's great

#145
tardy on these heaters
Post rating: ~

dm posted:

NounsareVerbs posted:
What result are you trying to get?

i don't even give a shit! it's great



did u do it

#146
[account deactivated]
#147
Post rating: ~
i'm starting to. way too many people to go through it with, but everything is ok so far. reactions have varied. i'm going to find out who my friends are and replace as necessary
#148
Post rating: ~
ok, so the next few months are going to really suck, but i'll be alright when it's over. in the meantime it's going to be impossible for me to come across correctly on The Internet. if you want an idea of what it's like, just try to think how you would answer this if you were in my position:

NounsareVerbs posted:
What result are you trying to get?



yeah. it's going to fucking suck.

#149
Post rating: ~
k, so finishing this thread up:

if i have made anyone uncomfortable/angry/frustrated/whatever lately, think of it sort of like a fever dream or something i guess. sorry.

some people who i'm not going to name have been really helpful in private. sorry if i was a pain in the ass for a bit, but you did get me start dealing with this. i understand how to make the people irl who have been slacking off do the work there from now. healing is a good thing and i've figured out how to do it.

i'm going to post a lot less while i get shit sorted out and it will be in the capitalism without procedures thread again.
#150
Post rating: +++++
UPDATE: HAPPY ENDING! (WARNING: a tiny bit more personal stuff)

it's taken me a lot less time than i though to process like 10 years worse of stuff and i'm getting other people to confront it and moving on with my life! the story basically goes like this:

severe physical and emotional abuse and neglect by parents --> suicide attempt (age 16/year 2003)--> getting sent to be psychologically tortured and a "secular excommunication" --> breakdown followed by severe depression from psychological torture and basically no support in dealing with it from anyone --> recovery (now)!

the suicide attempt is "why i was there" for all of you have been curious. the point is that it could have been anything else. as you can see, my predicament has been pretty ridiculous. i've had to figure out how to rebuild the social support networks that i was cut off from (it would have been nice if someone had been able to tell me that i was going to have to learn how to do this) and i've been doing that now that i can explain what was wrong!

any weirdness was a combination of: 1) what i've been dealing with is pretty goddamn ridiculous 2) parts of my nervous system responsible for feeling things in general and getting emotionally attached to people coming back to life 3) remembering how to use 2 again 4) the rhizzone temporarily serving as a surrogate support system while i pieced some things together and began to process them (fucking Weird).

anyways, yes i am sane/have friends/can function/am not a virgin/whatever else you weirdos thought while i was reconstructing some things and you had limited information/context to work with. i am quite content to stop talking about my personal life here and getting back to my (much better) normal posting Self again. it's not like i wanted to use an internet forum to begin processing severe trauma that nobody has been able to help me figure out.

i thought getting a good start on processing that with people irl was going to take a lot longer than it has, but it's going now and i'm doing fine, so i'm back or something i guess. you can start treating me normally again now

Edited by dm ()

#151
tardy on these heaters
Post rating: ~
yay
#152
Post rating: ~
good to hear, i can identify with being a suicidal teen though the emotional neglect wasnt really my parents direct choice and really there was no reason for me not to be in a similar pentecostal version of where you were sent
#153
Post rating: ~
yeah, the worst part is how you're supposed to be ashamed of it or w/e too, but that's a whole different issue. i should emphasize that this wasn't just an involuntary commitment thing (i'm not going to defend that either though).
#154
Post rating: +
actually i was 17, but it was still 2003. the time period labeled as "breakdown" is a bit more complicated. i was in that place for 9 months and got out a few months before i turned 18. i was actually going to school and everything right after i got out for several years and you wouldn't have been able to tell anything was wrong as long as i kept you at a safe distance. eventually it caught up with me though.

but yeah, everything is going to be fine now that i've finally figured out what happened and i have my life back and stuff
#155
Post rating: +
and i want to give a special thanks to DISCIPLINE, who was in the right "place" at the right time and managed to get past all the defenses i'd learned to use
#156
Post rating: +

dm posted:
and i want to give a special thanks to DISCIPLINE, who was in the right "place" at the right time and managed to get past all the defenses i'd learned to use

i knew all these damn teens needed was a little discipline

#157
Post rating: ~
Whenever I read about these places I just want to organize an armed liberation of every child in them.
#158
[account deactivated]
#159
tardy on these heaters
Post rating: ~

mudcrabs posted:
Whenever I read about these places I just want to organize an armed liberation of every child in them.



go back to wddp

#160
Post rating: +

mudcrabs posted:

Whenever I read about these places I just want to organize an armed liberation of every child in them.