Lawmakers on Monday passed the motion by 72 to 63 votes. The proposal was initially handed in by pro-independence MPs from the Together for Yes alliance and the extreme left-wing Popular Unity Candidacy.
The two parties submitted the proposal to the parliament after gaining a majority in September's regional elections....
Catalonia is home to 7.5 million people and accounts for a fifth of Spain’s economic output. Many Catalans have accused the government of siphoning off their tax money, saying the regional state will be more prosperous in economic terms if it gains secession."
Hmm...
Well, regardless of the character of the social forces driving this development , one thing is certain: once again, austerity has provoked the intensification of nationalism rather than encouraging integration within the EU. It will be interesting to what extant this will accelerate the devolution of powers in countries like UK with similar long standing nationality questions.
Edited by RedMaistre ()
Edited by RedMaistre ()
"Unquestionably the States have the powers and rights reserved to them in and by the National Constitution; but among these surely are not included all conceivable powers, however mischievous or destructive, but at most such only as were known in the world at the time as governmental powers; and certainly a power to destroy the Government itself had never been known as a governmental--as a merely administrative power. This relative matter of national power and State rights, as a principle, is no other than the principle of generality and locality ....
The seceders insist that our Constitution admits of secession. They have assumed to make a national constitution of their own, in which of necessity they have either discarded or retained the right of secession, as they insist it exists in ours. If they have discarded it, they thereby admit that on principle it ought not to be in ours. If they have retained it, by their own construction of ours they show that to be consistent they must secede from one another whenever they shall find it the easiest way of settling their debts or effecting any other selfish or unjust object. The principle itself is one of disintegration, and upon which no government can possibly endure."
From The Special Session Message by Abraham Lincoln.
Note that this is another difference between the Scottish Independence movement and that of Catalonia: the former has pursued its aspiration in a legal manner in conjunction with the rest of the UK, while Catalonian separatists have insisted on having their cake and eating it too:
"Pere Aragonès, another Together for Yes politician, pointed to Monday’s legislation to argue that Spanish courts no longer had jurisdiction over the process of breaking away from Spain.
The content of the resolution will be applied regardless of what the constitutional court says,” he told Agence France-Presse. “We have strength and legitimacy, even if the Spanish state resists.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/09/catalonia-mps-to-vote-on-secession-plan-in-showdown-with-spains-government
Edited by RedMaistre ()
idk
RedMaistre posted:I love small nations too, to the extant that anyone who is politically and religiously a Großstaatmensch can.
RedMaistre posted:Note that this is another difference between the Scottish Independence movement and that of Catalonia: the former has pursued its aspiration in a legal manner in conjunction with the rest of the UK, while Catalonian separatists have insisted on having their cake and eating it too:
that sort of puts it upside down though. the UK government has offered relatively friendly terms and had previously been committed to strong devolution. in spain, regionalism is often seen as an existential threat to the spanish state and the government refuses to accept any process that might lead to catalan independence.
getfiscal posted:RedMaistre posted:Note that this is another difference between the Scottish Independence movement and that of Catalonia: the former has pursued its aspiration in a legal manner in conjunction with the rest of the UK, while Catalonian separatists have insisted on having their cake and eating it too:
that sort of puts it upside down though. the UK government has offered relatively friendly terms and had previously been committed to strong devolution. in spain, regionalism is often seen as an existential threat to the spanish state and the government refuses to accept any process that might lead to catalan independence.
The Spanish government is right to be afraid, since as both honest irish republicans and clear-sighted British Unionist have always recognized in their respective ways, regionalism is an existential threat to a state, particularly, I suspect, for constitutional monarchies like the UK or the Spanish monarchy which, at the end of the day, are not built around the principle of political democracy but royal atavism.
swampman posted:RedMaistre posted:I love small nations too, to the extant that anyone who is politically and religiously a Großstaatmensch can.
I was using the singular form of Großstaatmensch. or "big-state men" a term that was coined by Ignaz Seipal in his work Nation and State to name the particular type of human that was produced by entities like Austro-Hungary, which he compared favorably to the monomania of the nation-state form.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2UoQ-ueHjdEC&pg=PA551&dq=ignaz+seipel+imperial+animal&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIqIKrn_eEyQIVRj0-Ch34Mwbe#v=onepage&q=ignaz%20seipel%20imperial%20animal&f=false
Edited by RedMaistre ()
NoFreeWill posted:im pro every independence movement, we just need to federate the states to crush the bad ones and keep a few big guys liker ussia and china around...
Well perhaps the dissolution, legal or not, into their individual national constituents of the constitutional monarchies in the Europe is the neccessary the condition for creating a democratic union of states in Western Eurasia.
But lets be clear: no such union will survive if rich regions are allowed to leave whenever they wanted to because they resented income transfers to the less well off parts of the federation.
Edited by RedMaistre ()
RedMaistre posted:swampman posted:RedMaistre posted:I love small nations too, to the extant that anyone who is politically and religiously a Großstaatmensch can.
I was using the singular form of Großstaatmensch. or "big-state men" a term that was coined by Ignaz Seipal in his work Nation and State to name the particular type of human that was produced by entities like Austro-Hungary, which he compared favorably to the monomania of the nation-state form.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2UoQ-ueHjdEC&pg=PA551&dq=ignaz+seipel+imperial+animal&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIqIKrn_eEyQIVRj0-Ch34Mwbe#v=onepage&q=ignaz%20seipel%20imperial%20animal&f=false
http://simple.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Gro%C3%9Fstaatmensch&action=edit
swampman posted:RedMaistre posted:swampman posted:RedMaistre posted:I love small nations too, to the extant that anyone who is politically and religiously a Großstaatmensch can.
I was using the singular form of Großstaatmensch. or "big-state men" a term that was coined by Ignaz Seipal in his work Nation and State to name the particular type of human that was produced by entities like Austro-Hungary, which he compared favorably to the monomania of the nation-state form.
https://books.google.com/books?id=2UoQ-ueHjdEC&pg=PA551&dq=ignaz+seipel+imperial+animal&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIqIKrn_eEyQIVRj0-Ch34Mwbe#v=onepage&q=ignaz%20seipel%20imperial%20animal&f=falsehttp://simple.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Gro%C3%9Fstaatmensch&action=edit
See:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8&rct=j#q=Gro%C3%9Fstaatmenschen
NoFreeWill posted:also i was under the impression that the basque and catalans were left-wing compared to thea ssholes from Madrid?
idk
i assume the concentration of industrial capital in catalan that led to the growth of separatist sentiment after the spanish-american war took its relatively inevitable conservative turn. the murder of thousands of communists and anarchists in the area during and after the spanish civil war probably helped
NoFreeWill posted:also i was under the impression that the basque and catalans were left-wing compared to thea ssholes from Madrid?
idk
(!) I was not discussing the distinct case represented by the Basques (2) Even if the claim that Catalans were measurably more leftwing in their opinions was indisputably true, I don't think that it's a particularly relevant fact, in Span or anywhere else. The politics of parties certainly matters, but making political opinion some sort of ethnic quality that gives a people a right to their territory (or the territory of others) is a recipe for prog chauvinism and liberal imperialism. And certainly this line of reasoning doesn't provide any usable legal norm for unilateral secession. Adopting such a principle would be tantamount to saying that the order of states must reflect the hyper-sectarian fragmentation of the left itself.
Edited by RedMaistre ()
RedMaistre posted:Pace certain liberal fatnasists, I don't think the United States, or North America in general for that matter, would be improved by either blue state secession or through encouraging Dixie/the Sun belt to leave.
will the world in general be improved by literally anything that weakens the usa. hmmm an intriguing question and a complex issue
littlegreenpills posted:RedMaistre posted:Pace certain liberal fatnasists, I don't think the United States, or North America in general for that matter, would be improved by either blue state secession or through encouraging Dixie/the Sun belt to leave.
will the world in general be improved by literally anything that weakens the usa. hmmm an intriguing question and a complex issue
Unless one believes, pace Marx, that the Southern Slaveocrat War of Aggression was Actually Good, it is simply not true that "literally anything" that weakens the usa is necessarily an improvement.
The CDC and the ERC, whilst imposing savage austerity measures since 2010, have whipped up separatism to block and disorient rising working class opposition to their austerity measures. One Catalan regional minister said last December, “If this country had not put forward a discourse based on nationalism, how would it have weathered adjustments of over 6 billion euros?”
The CUP, whilst fuelling this opposition, has channelled it into more aggressive nationalism, blaming the right-wing Spanish government in Madrid for all the ills facing Catalan workers. Covering for CDC-ERC austerity, it seeks to force these two parties into a more confrontational and chauvinist stance towards Madrid.
Trying to give a progressive fig leaf to the resolution, Together Yes and the CUP included an amendment pledging “social measures.” These include “facilitating the asylum of refugees”; a law against “fuel poverty” guaranteeing the poorest Catalan citizens access to electricity and other supplies; universal health care regardless of origin; annulling Spain’s gag law and the education law; and re-negotiating the public debt with Spain.
These pledges totally contradict the political record and class character of the CDC and ERC. According to a recent survey, Catalonia has 2.2 million poor and 19 percent unemployment, whilst the average salary has been cut by 10 percent since 2010—in years when Mas was in power. The promises of “social measures,” issued in a resolution widely expected to be declared unconstitutional by the CC, is an empty political charade."
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/11/10/cata-n10.html
littlegreenpills posted:RedMaistre posted:Pace certain liberal fatnasists, I don't think the United States, or North America in general for that matter, would be improved by either blue state secession or through encouraging Dixie/the Sun belt to leave.
will the world in general be improved by literally anything that weakens the usa. hmmm an intriguing question and a complex issue
this said, liberation of oppressed nations inside the current borders of the us is Good
Urbandale posted:littlegreenpills posted:RedMaistre posted:Pace certain liberal fatnasists, I don't think the United States, or North America in general for that matter, would be improved by either blue state secession or through encouraging Dixie/the Sun belt to leave.
will the world in general be improved by literally anything that weakens the usa. hmmm an intriguing question and a complex issue
this said, liberation of oppressed nations inside the current borders of the us is Good
The case of oppressed people of color within the USA is certainly different from that of Democrats who would do anything to avoid contact with "rednecks", or that of well off people who wish to keep their tax money/slaves.
However it is important to keep in mind that secession is not the only or inevitable way to advance national liberation:
"Quite definitely, this right (self-determination) includes the right of separation,
that is, the right to free political secession from the oppressing
nation. But self-determination must not be construed as identical
with secession and the establishment of an independent state.
The right of nations to secede is an inviolable democratic right,
but it is not an obligation, or a duty.
“A nation,” says Stalin, “has the right to arrange its
life on autonomous lines. It even has the right to secede.
But this does not mean that it should do so under all
circumstances, that autonomy, or separation, will everywhere
and always be advantageous for a nation, for the
majority of it population, for the toiling strata.'
....Any attempt to reduce the right of self-determination to the demand for secession is in fact to deny this right. It would be equivalent to dictating
the form in which the nation should apply its rights."
From Negro Liberation by Harry Haywood
Edited by RedMaistre ()
There certainly is a need for an analysts written from a sympathetic socialist pov both on what worked in the Soviet and Yugo models and what factors led to their decline.
So for now, the possibility of Spain trying to seize control of Catalonia's autonomous police force, known as the Mossos, or the prospect of Madrid cutting-off funding to the Catalan Government, known as the Generalitat, are just stories in Spanish newspapers."
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34792355
"On Nov. 1, a 30-day voting period will open to more than 100,000 Hawaiians certified by the state-sanctioned Native Hawaiian Roll Commission to elect delegates who will represent them in Honolulu this winter at an eight-week constitutional convention for self-governance. More than 200 Hawaiians on the mainland and across the islands are campaigning for 40 seats at the planned assembly, where the paramount task will be to draft a document that guides the creation of a government by and for Native Hawaiians.
Native Hawaiians are the only indigenous group in the U.S. without their own political structure.
The stakes were raised in September when the U.S. Department of Interior published a draft administrative rule outlining the process by which a Native Hawaiian government, once formed, could seek a formal government-to-government relationship with the United States. Native Hawaiian advocates have sought a rule that would open the door to federal recognition of a Native Hawaiian government for decades. All told, there are 566 American Indian and Alaska Native tribes with a federally recognized form of self-governance.
Citizens of a federally recognized Native Hawaiian government would be eligible for a special kind of dual citizenship. They would be able to become citizens of whatever form of native governance the Hawaiian community decides to create while retaining all the benefits of American citizenship. These are the rights former U.S. Sen. Daniel Akaka spent more than a decade trying to secure for Hawaiians through the passage of what’s popularly known as the Akaka bill."
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/10/30/historic-election-could-return-sovereignty-to-native-hawaiians.html
And here is an article from the pro-independence pov:
"Kelly explained that the seeds of Na'i Aupuni began when the Office of Hawaiian Affairs wrote to the U.S. State Department demanding the legal basis for Hawaii's annexation. She said, "Within 3 weeks of that letter, out of nowhere, the Department of Interior announced hearings in Hawaii to discuss creating a Native governing entity. Within six weeks, the Department of Interior was in Hawaii holding hearings on each island."
A majority of the hundreds of Hawaiians who testified at the hearings challenged the U.S. government's legitimacy in Hawaii and demanded independence. "We do not need you here. This is our country," and "Get out of our house! Go home," were among the sentiments expressed.
After those hearings, the Obama administration adopted Na'i Aupuni, the current election process, which given the historical context, appears as an attempt to retroactively legalize annexation via a facade of native Hawaiian participation.
"They've been trying to cover up the overthrow for 200 years," said Kelly."
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/33590-us-government-asks-native-hawaiians-to-legitimize-occupation-with-vote
"The UCC apology also prompted the Congress to pass a joint resolution in 1993 apologizing only to the Native Hawaiian people, rather than to the entire citizenry of the Hawaiian Kingdom, for the United States’ role in the overthrow of the Hawaiian government. This resolution maintained an indigenous and historically inaccurate focus that implied that only ethnic Hawaiians constituted the kingdom, and fertilized the incipient ethnocentrism of the sovereignty movement. The Resolution provided:
'Congress…apologizes to the Native Hawaiians on behalf of the people of the United States for the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawai‘i on January 17, 1893 with the participation of agents and citizens of the United States, and the deprivation of the rights of Native Hawaiians to self-determination.'
The Congressional apology rallied many Native Hawaiians, who were not fully aware of the legal status of the Hawaiian Islands as a sovereign State, in the belief that their situation had similar qualities to Native-American tribes in the nineteenth century. The resolution reinforced the belief of a native Hawaiian nation grounded in Hawaiian indigeneity and culture, rather than an occupied State under prolonged occupation."
http://hawaiiankingdom.org/blog/the-hawaiian-sovereignty-movement-operating-on-a-false-premise/
I wonder if vimeo embeds function
e: haha nope. http://www.pinkyshow.org/projectarchives/videos/part-3-hawaii-vs-us-imperialism
Edited by Urbandale ()
RedMaistre posted:There certainly is a need for an analysts written from a sympathetic socialist pov both on what worked in the Soviet and Yugo models and what factors led to their decline.
On that note, what are some good books on Yugoslavia?
Lampe's book would be an essential basic history
http://www.amazon.com/Yugoslavia-History-Twice-There-Country/dp/0521774012
For history specifically between 1946-1974 there is Dennison Rusinow's Yugoslav experiment:
http://www.amazon.com/Yugoslav-Experiment-1948-1974-Dennison-Rusinow/dp/0520037308
Regarding the collapse, there is Fool's Crusade by Diana Johnston
http://www.amazon.com/Fools-Crusade-Yugoslavia-Western-Delusions/dp/158367084X
And To Kill a Nation by Parenti
http://www.michaelparenti.org/ToKillANation.html
RedMaistre posted:There certainly is a need for an analysts written from a sympathetic socialist pov both on what worked in the Soviet and Yugo models and what factors led to their decline.
It's interesting how the USSR collapsed out of its own ineptitude; meanwhile, Yugoslavia had to get literally torn apart by NATO thugs on the ground to finally cease to exist like Western capitalists intended.
Yugoslavia also had its own problems and tensions, obviously, like the Albanian Muslims and their procreation tactics (Tito tried to appease them all the time, but Albanians followed their imams more than any socialist authority.)
COINTELBRO posted:USSR collapsed out of its own ineptitude
MODS?!