#121
Dont Mess With Sucess
Post rating: +
#122
[account deactivated]
#123
Post rating: ~
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia-venezuela/venezuela-blasts-spains-rajoy-over-repression-in-catalonia-idUSKCN1C61S9
#124
mt.real
Post rating: +
sorry I've been away. here are some things












#125
mt.real
Post rating: ~
I've read some opinions that this might all just be one shitty nationalist force vs another, and quoting some old Catalonian communists who went through the whole franco thing as saying this is all bullshit stirred up to make capitalist Barcelonans more money. anyone have any trustworthy better info?

I do know first-hand that Barcelona has some extreme wealth disparity ..
#126
Post rating: ~



Laughs...
#127
Post rating: ~
"The independence movement cuts across class and generational lines, but the middle classes and young people dominate it. The high bourgeoisie has opposed the independence process from the beginning and consistently attempted from behind the scenes to derail it. The traditional working class — historically, immigrants who came to Catalonia from southern Spain in the sixties — has been less involved.

We can explain the traditional working class’s absence by two different but related phenomena: the lack of this class’s identification with the Catalan national question, and the decomposition of the labor movement. Workers in Catalonia remain divided on independence, and a significant part of them do not view an independent state as a future horizon."

https://jacobinmag.com/2017/09/catalonia-independence-referendum-spain-podemos

This is the evaluation of a publication that still of course advocates for the separatists for "prog" reasons.
#128
Post rating: +


FT knows what's up...
#129
mt.real
Post rating: ~
Catalonia announced the results were 90% leave & that they will unilaterally declare independence in a couple of days, so now we get to see what a Western developed country's civil war looks like in 2017

i wish i felt like i was exaggerating, but if just having a vote gets riot cops beating old ladies with nightsticks, what does declaring independence get you
#130
mt.real
Post rating: +
also, almost every world leader is carefully saying nothing. Always good to be reminded in black and white whose side they're on
#131
Post rating: +
i fully support all of the following:
catalonia's entry into the russian federation
US intervention in spain to guarantee catalonian independence, hopefully with some boots on the ground
UN sanctions on spain
julian assange taking refuge in the catalonian embassy
#132
Post rating: +
im not interested in another spanish civil war unless it has peasants insanely brutally slaughtering clergymen. the middle classes? no thanks
#133
Post rating: +++++
This is going to destroy my cottage industry of anarchists-reminiscing-about-catalonia memes by creating confusion about which Catalonia event is being discussed, much like how the death of Vilerat forever overshadowed the 9/11 Pinochet coup
#134
Post rating: +
so this is basically like california seceding right? there are no winners here
#135
Post rating: ~
if a seceded catalonia remains in the EU what would even be the practical difference to seceding?
#136
Post rating: +
well, it would piss everyone off
#137
Black Belt
Post rating: ~
#138
Post rating: +
Polls: 40% support independance
Spanish govt: we must stop all but the most determined from voting by using our stormtroopers
polls: 90% voted for independance
#139
Black Belt
Post rating: +
Statement by the Communist Party of the Peoples of Spain (PCPE)
https://communismgr.blogspot.gr/2017/10/catalonia-referendum-statement-by.html

Following the events of today, the PCPE shows its concern for the increase of the repressive escalation in the Catalan conflict. Today the dictatorial nature of the State has been re-established, an element that we Communists have always denounced and for which we have especially warned in recent weeks.

The PCPE has spoken clearly about the political basis of the Catalan conflict and the proposals that the working class needs in order to get out of the false dichotomies in which nationalism seeks to trap it. We have said that the road of independentism is not useful for achieving self-determination in Catalonia. But while we try to get the working class to choose its own way, we believe that all those Catalans who wanted to express themselves through the vote had the right to do so without having to face police charges. The actions of the State aimed at preventing the vote, especially those of a police nature, have all our rejection.

The PCPE is concerned about the rise of nationalism. When the working class, by virtue of the defense of the homeland, gives a blank check to its government to confront the working class of other nations, it is being defeated. The defense of the country must always be the defense of the interests of its working class, interests always confluent with those of the entire international working class.

The Political Secretariat of the PCPE, 1 October 2017.

#140
Post rating: +++++
im living in the middle of this, so can answer questions in a longer post if you like.

it's been a wild ride, but it's not a revolution. the majority of those leading the process are bourgeois and corrupt neoliberal politicians, although the small anti-capitalist block is punching above their weight in terms of influence.

of those mobilizing on the ground not everyone shares a vision for a separate catalunya, or even support the local government beyond engaging as protest to the recalcitrant attitude of the national government. as a woman said to me "this isn't about nationalism anymore, it's about community and solidarity".

i should stress that the situation is not on the brink of civil war, life is mostly normal here, despite the increasing cacophony every night for the last week as residents bang pots and pans from their windows and balconies while cars honk their horns.

im struggling to understand the strategic value in further polarizing the situation, which is the inevitable and obvious results of such violent actions as tears points out. the national government are not stupid/naive, so it remains to see what they have up their sleeve as this situation progresses.

of course local government will unilaterally "declare independence" during the general strike tomorrow, but the legal aspect remains complicated. as ive posted before the politicians fanning the flames of nationalism would likely settle for greater fiscal autonomy if offered.
#141
Post rating: ~

drwhat posted:

Catalonia announced the results were 90% leave & that they will unilaterally declare independence in a couple of days, so now we get to see what a Western developed country's civil war looks like in 2017

i wish i felt like i was exaggerating, but if just having a vote gets riot cops beating old ladies with nightsticks, what does declaring independence get you


my understanding is that the independence bill proposes expulsion of the spanish army but there is no catalonian military at this time, so im not sure how this could possibly turn into a war. more likely the leadership persists and is arrested and tried, accompanied by protests put down forcefully by riot police again... and that will probably be it? just spitballing here

#142
Post rating: +
they do have their own police, though. they never seriously opposed the national police during the vote but there were lots of videos of cop-on-cop pushing matches

me , i think catalonianian independence should be assumed to be at least not-bad for the same reason that partitioning anti-western states should be assumed to be bad. (also i was just in barcelona for a belated honeymoon last week and it was hard not to get caught up in the, uh,, rOmAnCe of the cAuSe, even though i did also meet a friend of a friend who is a latin american immigrant and who made the common-sense objection of "it would be a pain in the ass to have to get fluent in this second language i don't otherwise really need")

Edited by thirdplace ()

#143
Post rating: +

Petrol posted:

there is no catalonian military at this time, so im not sure how this could possibly turn into a war.



there isn't a catalan army but they do have their own police force, "mossos d'escuadra", which were tasked with shutting down the voting after being brought under the command of the "guardia civil" (a national police force). they did little more than inspect voting stations and as such the national forces stepped in to shut it down which led to some (mostly non-violent) altercations between the local and national police. although even if things got significantly uglier i doubt there would be any likelyhood or support for sustained armed violence from any of the actors involved or the public.

the local government has called for the withdrawl of spanish national police and guardia civil as well as requesting "international mediation". on the other side mossos now face sanctions and the possible expulsion of their chief for insubordination.

*oops thirdplace beat me to it

Edited by Gssh ()

#144
Post rating: ~
Gssh, why did the spanish govt send in the troops in the first place? sEems like it would have been better just to let them take the referendum whIch would probably been a no to independence?
#145
Poronto
Post rating: ~
the view from fuckplace: rajoy is a globalist lizardperson and wants catalonia to secede because a fragmented Spain is less able to resist austerity and the IMF, that's why he sent the cops in
#146
Post rating: +
short answer: the government's stated position is that there is no provision within the constitution for a region to secede from the whole of spain and to do so unilaterally is therefore illegal and a threat to the territorial and constitutional integrity of the country. to use public funds and institutional resources to do so amounts to sedition/treason and it is their duty to step in to defend the democracy. the results of a referendum is not of consequence within this logic, even if it would be a vote to stay.
#147
Post rating: ~
thanks for helping me make sense of the sudden rush of news, was struggling to process all the news
#148
Post rating: +
I don't know if ksan from reddit is one of you guys but I'm gonna copy-paste what he or she wrote:

It's painful to be forced to say this on /r/communism, and I'm getting too old for this shit. But once again: do not believe every stupid thing you read on the internet when powerful interests are on the line. The situation in Spain and Catalonia is complex and requires a proper analysis (which most people here probably have not done), but; if you believe millions of people would go on the streets and put their bodies on the line just to piss on the poorest masses of Spain, AND, if you believe the Spanish State would be their defender, AND that this is the main and only reason for the independence movement... well, then may I interest you on a bridge I have for sale.

One side is trying to fight for their right to self-determination, a matter of principle for Marxists and by definition national-democratic struggle which will include a part of the (petty)bourgeoisie. The other is sending a 17k+ strong police force to kick the living hell out of millions of people trying to vote and to defend the interests of the Spanish bourgeoisie, which happens to include the majority of the most powerful bourgeoisie in Catalunya, who are all firmly against independence (all the major banks, the employers organization, the big energy corporations, the big media groups, etc).

This is not a difficult choice to make.

"If this is a national-democratic struggle, then where are the communists?" (reddit user Zhang Chunqiao asks).

Many in Catalunya are awake after 48 hours straight organizing their neighborhoods to vote and to to defend themselves from the National Police and the Guardia Civil. In Spain yesterday there were massive demonstrations against police brutality and in support of Catalunya. Guess who organized them? There's a general strike tomorrow in Catalunya supported by every single union (even the shittiest ones). Even the damn PCE has enough dignity left to stand for a way more principled position than most people in this subreddit.

Most people commenting in here need to: a) actually study the historical context of Spain before saying nonsense, b) give up their silly idealism where they won't support anything that is not a perfect army of proletarian good versus the army of bourgeois evil. Lenin wrote about this, it's even somewhat famous.

The general strike seems like it could be a really massive one. Probably the largest one by far many people will have seen in their entire lives.



#149
Post rating: +

littlegreenpills posted:

the view from fuckplace: rajoy is a globalist lizardperson and wants catalonia to secede because a fragmented Spain is less able to resist austerity and the IMF, that's why he sent the cops in



this is an interesting line to have for those who are so ardently against kurdish independence since spain is undoubtedly an imperialist country, it's just towards the periphery of international imperialism. i've seen people imply that because the catalan FM or w/e said he wants to stay in NATO and the EU, and catalonia is the richest region within the spanish state, this would not weaken imperialism. i'm not sure how they could claim that since independence would also work in the opposite direction, and limit the ability of catalan capital to draw upon non-catalan labor-power and resources.

but the idea that if catalonia got its independence, the catalan bourgeoisie (who favored independence) would remain in an alliance with the working class - which seems to be implied by those who point out the neoliberal character of part of the alliance within the largest catalan nationalist party - is a joke. i don't think i need to recapitulate the argument about how the national question remaining unanswered distorts the class struggle (the obvious manifestation being this alliance of the workers and "their" bourgeoisie in the first place), and how if you genuinely desire a "pure" class struggle of the catalan workers against "their" bourgeoisie, you need to resolve the national question, but it's unfortunate that from what i've seen, the KKE's position regarding it amounts to 'nationalism is bad' when this was figured out in the debate between the Polish Social-Democrats and the Bolsheviks 100 years ago. and, maybe this is over-thinking it, but finland was the richest region of the russian empire, and if the bolsheviks did not support finnish national self-determination, they may not have succeeded as that recently transcribed book shows in chapter 1.

what's funny is that the post-modern analysis of "weak states" versus "strong" globalized multinational capital is being drawn upon by ultra-lefts to justify their position. maybe germany - whose bourgeoisie looks like it's becoming willing to break with the US over the russian sanctions which are punishing european multinationals for dealing with gazprom - should annex the rest of europe to defend themselves against themselves or something.

either way, this is a signal fire for other oppressed nationalities within spain (namely the basques, who recently gave up their illegal methods) and hopefully the workers of castillia. if catalan nationalism is somehow itself creating a reciprocal nationalism amongst the workers in castillia as the KKE is implying, then this issue will remain until the spanish state is deprived of those 'regions' which desire freedom.

Edited by marlax78 ()

#150
Post rating: +
Well, from what I can tell, the working class of Catalonia are non-Catalan immigrants and increasingly third world immigrants and us readers of Settlers know a thing or two about labor aristocracy advocating separatism to oppress the proletariat more than the national bourgeoisie will allow. This is more like Rhodesia than Angola and I am particularly disturbed by the lack of class analysis on all sides but particularly those caught up in the spectacle of the movement and shaming everyone who is apprehensive about another bourgeois separatist movement. Particularly that reddit post which erases serious discussion of class and the leadership of the movement and replaces it with shame. I am willing to be wrong but the KKE position tells me I'm right since we're reliving the shaming of those who refused to support SYRIZA except with a historical amnesia of what actually happened to SYRIZA and all the left forces that were absorbed, chewed up and spit out by it.
#151
Post rating: +
Hot take - return al-andalus to islam, which is the way and the light
#152
Post rating: ~
The fact that Julian aSSange is pretending to care about Catalan independence is good enough reason to be suspicious.
#153
Post rating: ~
hmmm fair points. gssh, as the official rHizzonE correspondent, can you describe the class character of the movement?
#154
mt.real
Post rating: ~

Gssh posted:

short answer: the government's stated position is that there is no provision within the constitution for a region to secede from the whole of spain and to do so unilaterally is therefore illegal and a threat to the territorial and constitutional integrity of the country. to use public funds and institutional resources to do so amounts to sedition/treason and it is their duty to step in to defend the democracy. the results of a referendum is not of consequence within this logic, even if it would be a vote to stay.


this is clearly their public justification, but they could have intervened with police weeks ago. elections are complex logistical operations, they don't happen overnight. they could have arrested the head organizers of the election, or taken all their shit out of their offices, or done more court shit. but no, they allowed all of this to get set up, for people to have voting locations, and then they got out the face shields and steel batons and beat down those seditious old ladies standing in the poll line. i am not interested in their public justification, because it doesn't explain why this was the way to intercede that they chose.

#155
Post rating: ~
well, I'm not familiar with the nuances of the spanish legal system, but the preparatory steps weren't necessarily illegal. the justification for the police action was to shut down the illegal act as it happened. if they hadn't done anything they could have been seen as tacitly accepting the right to conduct the vote in spite of the court ruling, opening up a more definite route to international recognition of the vote. the actions of the police on the day were clearly over the top and "bad optics" but i guess madrid cared less about that than they did about doing something decisive and details/cost be damned?
#156
Post rating: +

drwhat posted:

they could have arrested the head organizers of the election, or taken all their shit out of their offices, or done more court shit



they actually did all these things.

#157
Post rating: +

marlax78 posted:

I don't know if ksan from reddit is one of you guys but I'm gonna copy-paste what he or she wrote:

It's painful to be forced to say this on /r/communism, and I'm getting too old for this shit. But once again: do not believe every stupid thing you read on the internet when powerful interests are on the line. The situation in Spain and Catalonia is complex and requires a proper analysis (which most people here probably have not done), but; if you believe millions of people would go on the streets and put their bodies on the line just to piss on the poorest masses of Spain, AND, if you believe the Spanish State would be their defender, AND that this is the main and only reason for the independence movement... well, then may I interest you on a bridge I have for sale.

One side is trying to fight for their right to self-determination, a matter of principle for Marxists and by definition national-democratic struggle which will include a part of the (petty)bourgeoisie. The other is sending a 17k+ strong police force to kick the living hell out of millions of people trying to vote and to defend the interests of the Spanish bourgeoisie, which happens to include the majority of the most powerful bourgeoisie in Catalunya, who are all firmly against independence (all the major banks, the employers organization, the big energy corporations, the big media groups, etc).

This is not a difficult choice to make.

"If this is a national-democratic struggle, then where are the communists?" (reddit user Zhang Chunqiao asks).

Many in Catalunya are awake after 48 hours straight organizing their neighborhoods to vote and to to defend themselves from the National Police and the Guardia Civil. In Spain yesterday there were massive demonstrations against police brutality and in support of Catalunya. Guess who organized them? There's a general strike tomorrow in Catalunya supported by every single union (even the shittiest ones). Even the damn PCE has enough dignity left to stand for a way more principled position than most people in this subreddit.

Most people commenting in here need to: a) actually study the historical context of Spain before saying nonsense, b) give up their silly idealism where they won't support anything that is not a perfect army of proletarian good versus the army of bourgeois evil. Lenin wrote about this, it's even somewhat famous.

The general strike seems like it could be a really massive one. Probably the largest one by far many people will have seen in their entire lives.





That guy banned me for an offhand criticism of Catalan independence lmao. Guess I'll hang out here, I like the rhizzone memes.

#158
Post rating: +
reddit lefty subs are what happens which the primary troll threat is a horde of awful reactionary nerds many times your number instead of 2-3 schizophrenics like it is here
#159
mt.real
Post rating: ~

Gssh posted:

drwhat posted:
they could have arrested the head organizers of the election, or taken all their shit out of their offices, or done more court shit



they actually did all these things.




oh.

#160
mt.real
Post rating: +
anyway now that I am back (sorry everyone I didn't even get all those PMs in my email inbox) if you want to write a "hello everyone this is what is up" synopsis of things for idiots like me/us, Gssh, i will immediately put it on the front page and tweet it to our many(???) followers