babyfinland posted:doesn't letting people out of gaza and similar situations morally supercede whatever effect it might have on the global labor market
who cares about these fantasy scenarios though?
daddyholes posted:jools posted:like, the existence of the borders and the contradiction created by labour movement in spite of them is what works in favour of capital, rather than the movement of labour itself
are we talking labor arbitrage here or something more
well, more than labour arbitrage but probably nothing you've not already thought of, just that regimes of immigration control operate to discipline undocumented migrant labour in a way unacceptable when applied to the labour force at large, so you have a segment of the labour force you can exploit further in/for certain circumstances.
and labour arbitrage itself isn't *that* simple, migrant labour is quite a useful phenomenon if you have seasonal work to deal with (agriculture, tourism, etc) as then you don't have to deal with the political problems associated with regular unemployment, they can just fuck off. though this probably applies more to internal migration in china than the US? i don't know that much about it
Lessons posted:like, advocating open borders to end the gaza siege is like advocating an end of gender to stop sex trafficking. neither of these things are gonna happen anytime soon and it would be much easier so solve the 'derivative' problems through other means. you might as well advocate teleporting everyone out of gaza
i dont think the rafah crossing opening properly is at all comparable to that though, it's not completely insane to imagine it happening somewhat soon?
Lessons posted:babyfinland posted:doesn't letting people out of gaza and similar situations morally supercede whatever effect it might have on the global labor market
who cares about these fantasy scenarios though?
i don't think the end of the occupation of gaza is a fantasy scenario really
Lessons posted:like, advocating open borders to end the gaza siege is like advocating an end of gender to stop sex trafficking. neither of these things are gonna happen anytime soon and it would be much easier so solve the 'derivative' problems through other means. you might as well advocate teleporting everyone out of gaza
i don't think anyone is advocating that. i'm trying to get a little bit more nuanced discussion than one that seems to follow the logic of "all restrictions on labor mobility is good because capital triumphalizes its form of free labor"
i mean the capitalist system restricts movement far more than it frees it in any case
Lessons posted:i thought you were implying open borders would be a solution to that? if not sure, obviously, an end to the siege would be way preferable.
right. that was an obvious example i offered to counter you guys' argument that "all relaxation of borders benefits capital"
discipline posted:jools posted:i said like-for-like, i mean taking account of the distribution of unionisation by sector and so forth.
I don't know what you mean exactly
like, unionisation in some industries and jobs is much more common, in others its much less. similarly, the rate of employment of undocumented labour is higher in some industries/jobs, less in others. were the distribution of employment of undocumented labour the same as labour as a whole, then what you said would be relevant. but as i'm almost certain it's not the case, you'd have to compare unionisation rates to a documented equivalent adjusted to take account for this difference in distribution.
gyrofry posted:what could/would make "properly free movement" become reality
TRAINS
babyfinland posted:Lessons posted:i thought you were implying open borders would be a solution to that? if not sure, obviously, an end to the siege would be way preferable.
right. that was an obvious example i offered to counter you guys' argument that "all relaxation of borders benefits capital"
well idk why you're including me in that. i said i expected most border relaxation that actually goes through to benefit international capital, but i also said it's contextual and gave an example where i though it wouldn't.
daddyholes posted:maybe we need some sort of International
thats crazy talk, its not like the first international was set up to fight the fact that english strikes were being broken with the employment of french and irish workers
discipline posted:babyfinland posted:and so relaxing or eliminating the border situation there is supposed to benefit capitalist flows somehow?
well it's clearly benefiting the israelis to relax certain restrictions so...
what? i mean "relaxing" them i.e. allowing gazans out regardless of their education levels and such. how on earth would that benefit israel? they build huge walls to prevent that from happening
Lessons posted:babyfinland posted:Lessons posted:i thought you were implying open borders would be a solution to that? if not sure, obviously, an end to the siege would be way preferable.
right. that was an obvious example i offered to counter you guys' argument that "all relaxation of borders benefits capital"
well idk why you're including me in that. i said i expected most border relaxation that actually goes through to benefit international capital, but i also said it's contextual and gave an example where i though it wouldn't.
oh ok
i only read the first and last part of your post here:
i expect any relaxing of border control under the established order is going to be in the service of international capital more than anything else. however i'm open to evaluating each situation individually, like if mexico or china wants looser immigration policies with western nations, (that's certainly the case with Mexico and the US), they're probably right. the whole thing about truly open borders otoh is so abstract and distant as to be absurd and i don't really see a reason to address it.
so yeah we agree then
daddyholes posted:well yes that was the joke jools
i was educating our audience friendo
daddyholes posted:i guess i dont have any stunning insights but, yes, labor follows higher wages and international workers' solidarity helps stop strikebreaking? and its really terrible in gaza for a lot of people?
yeah im really not sure whats going on here because it seems like people are looking to make the point that businesses use porous borders to exploit immigrant labor, which i think everyone here is aware of
daddyholes posted:oh okay. i suddenly felt like i was watching David Harvey on YouTube
http://lildub.me/?v=gBazR59SZXk&vs=346&a=sDwmCFgoiE8&as=44.5
daddyholes posted:i honestly have a hard time approaching the topic in a clinical way because im sort of blinded by my upbringing. the Church in America has a nominal belief in secure borders which it gets down to eventually, after demanding a full path to legalization for workers and the restoration of due process
is this like, at all a theological thing or a consequence of catholic history in the US
discipline posted:I would love to see these numbers. anecdotally my union is incredibly friendly to undocumented workers. they make up a huge portion of our membership to the point where there is stronger language for undocumented workers in our contracts than in any other union contract in the country :^)
sweet. did you follow FLOC and Mt. Olive and all that a few years ago. It was a big victory but i felt a little weird about the whole thing because it was basically hand in hand with H-2A. better that guest workers should be represented than not of course but i keep running into Lant Pritchett talking about how what we must do at all costs is move workers around without letting them have any control over their lives ... not new of course but it seems new to me that people are just openly talking about it in America now and im not like EHEHEH ACCELERATE about it
exciting stuff still going on with FLOC against R.J. Reynolds and everyone hates them so Im looking forward to the future there
capital already tramples unfetterred across the us-mexico border, bringing down the wall will change nothing about that
jools posted:daddyholes posted:i honestly have a hard time approaching the topic in a clinical way because im sort of blinded by my upbringing. the Church in America has a nominal belief in secure borders which it gets down to eventually, after demanding a full path to legalization for workers and the restoration of due process
is this like, at all a theological thing or a consequence of catholic history in the US
it's theologically based in the pilgrim Psalms from what i remember (and otherwise just the stuff you'd expect, the Prophets, the Sermon on the Mount, Tobit) which is pretty lol given the Church and the Jews.
it is tough stuff to grapple with too there because of that Psalm 136 (137 Hebrew which is its famous number), the old spiritual about being made to sing songs in a strange land by your captors. But what a lot of people don't remember is that is also the Psalm that like Richard Dawkins likes to quote because it ends with the whole bit about Babylon, happy is he who kills your children by smashing them on the rocks. Catholic teaching about this is about having to come to grips with how injustice causes anger, even murderous anger and you have to ultimately understand even that and forgive it and recognize its potential to exist within yourself as well as a sinner and resist its temptation. It certainly is sympathetic to the text as it must be. Toiling in a strange land is something the Israelites do, it's something the Apostles do in Acts, and so on. It's a common thread in the Bible and in the teachings that reflect it.
But yes to be frank it also is a consequence of Catholic history in the U.S. and also the future, it does not hurt that immigrants from all over, from pretty much every avenue from student visas to lottery visas to undocumented workers to guest workers and so on, from the different corners of the Earth that those sources draw from, all offer a way for the USCCB and local parishes to replenish their flock and funding as white Americans drift away
Edited by cars ()