Naturally internet atheists are using is as an opportunity to paint all muslims as terrorists who hate freedom of speech. The thread has also gotten into that youtube video. My point has been that the Muslims who are protesting, the videos and the cartoons aren't what they are upset about, it is the feeling of powerlessness that comes from being a victim of imperialism while being expected to feel grateful. Also most Muslims are not protesting, most Muslims are going to work and going to school, though they may be personally offended by it.
And that the magazine is hardly leftist or subversive by directing hate speech against a minority in France who continues to be the target of race baiting legislation, discrimination, hate crimes and marginalization. That the magazine also ha cartoons about the pope is irrelevant because Islamophobia is often mired in racism.
I think I have been rolling with the punches but naturally as a distraction, they bring up that Mohammed had a 9 year old wife. I've seen this before. I'm ashamed to say I've brought it up before being a liberal atheist. How do I respond to it. I thought of bringing up that the bible is filled with examples of kings and prophets doing similar things, including incest but I would rather ask someone who is smarter than me about the issue as to what point I can bring up to counter it.
George Bernard Shaw posted:I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it.
shennong posted:what does the age of aisha have to do with the message
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/22/femen-topless-warriors-global-feminism
Outside, on the streets of Goutte d'Or, the three tall, beautiful women cut an incongruous path through the veiled and headscarf-wearing women of the large local Muslim community, weaving their pushchairs through the roadworks. Femen's "Better naked than the burqa" campaign has made few inroads here.
"The decision to bring the fight to France and open a training centre was a French initiative, an invitation from French feminists who sent us a message saying they needed us," said Inna.
"Before then we thought of France as a first world and already feminist country that didn't really need us. Since arriving, I have met many Frenchwomen and they say they need to start the fight again. We are bringing a new face, new blood, a new fight to feminism."
libelous_slander posted:A song of iceburn and rjfire
"muhammed was a gross pedophile, the quran is a pedophile's book!"
*is a fan of asoiaf in which a 13 year old girl is raped in an arranged marriage and learns to love it*
MadMedico posted:
Outside, on the streets of Goutte d'Or, the three tall, beautiful women cut an incongruous path through the veiled and headscarf-wearing women of the large local Muslim community, weaving their pushchairs through the roadworks. Femen's "Better naked than the burqa" campaign has made few inroads here.
"The decision to bring the fight to France and open a training centre was a French initiative, an invitation from French feminists who sent us a message saying they needed us," said Inna.
"Before then we thought of France as a first world and already feminist country that didn't really need us. Since arriving, I have met many Frenchwomen and they say they need to start the fight again. We are bringing a new face, new blood, a new fight to feminism."
Please do not post Tity. I just got fired
http://www.defending-islam.com/page184.html
http://mac.abc.se/~onesr/d/aam2_e.pdf
first you need to understand that marrying girls at whatever age was common in semitic societies at the time. this isn't to make the relativist argument that muhammad wasn't doing anything deviant for his time (although this is true), but that when you condemn muhammad for this, you are condemning ancient society in general. i think there's a basically racist / orientalist subtext in that rhetoric, that of the static eastern world whose customs are deplorable, unchanging and unkind.
also, in singling out muhammad, they're making it out to be a deviant behavior in the context of our own society, by virtue of the fact that for us adulthood is not derived from physiological facts as it is in islam and premodern societies, but from the notion of consent. we have a multitude of basically arbitrary age thresholds that one crosses post-puberty that affirm "adolescence". there was no such thing as adolescence until modern bourgeois society and its disciplinary mode. people were children, then their body matured, and they were then adults, with the mental and emotional maturity of an adult. physiologically and mentally, aisha was an adult by her own reckoning, by muhammad's reckoning, by the community's reckoning and according to the shari'a, by God's reckoning as well. muhammad isn't alive now, but i don't think he would marry a modern nine year old girl. modern (i.e. west-socialized) muslims don't do it, and no one thinks to take from his example that marrying underage girls is ethical behavior.
also needs to be understood that the age of the marriage, age of cohabitation, and age of consumation are different and what's really the concern is the latter.
PS i don't mean to undermine the value of consent in regards to sexual relations. islam requires consent from both parties in marriage, and either partner has the right to refuse marriage, and also the right to marry, whoever they like. it's just not the basis for adulthood the way it is for us
Edited by babyfinland ()
discipline posted:why do people care so much about islam. do they realize they only care about it because the hateful authorities want them to hate on it
daddy im fucking a colored?
Edited by babyfinland ()
discipline posted:why do people care so much about islam. do they realize they only care about it because the hateful authorities want them to hate on it
authorities don't want us to hate it. hatred of islam is a proletarian belief, like racism in general, while the 'authorities' are often blacks like obama telling us to love each other. the real hegemonic belief in america is "why can't we all just get along."
getfiscal posted:discipline posted:why do people care so much about islam. do they realize they only care about it because the hateful authorities want them to hate on it
authorities don't want us to hate it. hatred of islam is a proletarian belief, like racism in general, while the 'authorities' are often blacks like obama telling us to love each other. the real hegemonic belief in america is "why can't we all just get along."
babyfinland posted:i do think it's perfectly natural for people to object to premodern social structures regarding sexuality since they are socialized according to different ones, but the real point is why muhammad in particular as the symbol of premodernity, and why such vitriol. that muhammad married someone of physiological and mental maturity according to his own community's standards turns into child rape in their discourse indicates the intensity with which they desire that imperial power intervene, to prevent a rape and provide the civilized, modern mode of social organization
Nine year olds, dude.